Luftwaffe Aircraft Loss Reports?

[Larry deZeng]

Thanks - I did not know about the AV-1, RUS or USA series.

There are a bunch of others, too. The ones I listed are just the main ones. The correct title of the collection is: Records of Luftgaukommandos Downed Allied Aircraft Reports. The index to these 700 linear feet of files can be found on 17 microfiche that are part of RG 92 (why there and not RG 242 is a mystery). You can find more details here:

http://www.lwag.org/forums/showthrea...ftgaukommandos

I just tried to locate the collection using SEARCH on the NARA web site ( http://www.archives.gov/ ) but I couldn't find it. I suspect they haven't yet entered it into their on-line catalog.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, Larry

Was the entire files photographed onto microfilm? Or only an index?

Especially interested in the Russian downed aircraft part.

BTW, link to the record of the Bf 110 referred to earlier:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=138560

Regards,
Andreas B

[Nikita Egorov]

RUS-21 to RUS-6016 (downed Russian aircraft);
etc., etc.

is a folder detailed the investigation of the downed Allied aircraft, eyewitness reports, recovery of remains, burial details, and many folders also contain dogtags, photos, letters and other personal possessions recovered from deceased airmen found in the wreckage.

Extremely interesting! Are those files available for ordering, working with?

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Hi, Larry

Was the entire files photographed onto microfilm? Or only an index?

Especially interested in the Russian downed aircraft part.

BTW, link to the record of the Bf 110 referred to earlier:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=138560

Regards,
Andreas B

Thx for reference Andreas!

Bill

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Hi, Larry
Was the entire files photographed onto microfilm? Or only an index?
Especially interested in the Russian downed aircraft part.
BTW, link to the record of the Bf 110 referred to earlier:
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=138560
Regards,
Andreas B

Hi Andreas,

Sadly, this large collection has never been microfilmed. These are original German papers and the only collection of captured German documents that were not returned to the BRD in the 1960's and 1970's. They were permanently confiscated because they deal directly and exclusively with downed Allied air crew. To this day, the administrators and archivists at BA-MA Freiburg remain bitter about it. I've got one word for them: Tough.

Larry

[RodM]

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

There are a bunch of others, too. The ones I listed are just the main ones. The correct title of the collection is: Records of Luftgaukommandos Downed Allied Aircraft Reports. The index to these 700 linear feet of files can be found on 17 microfiche that are part of RG 92 (why there and not RG 242 is a mystery). You can find more details here:

http://www.lwag.org/forums/showthrea...ftgaukommandos

I just tried to locate the collection using SEARCH on the NARA web site ( http://www.archives.gov/ ) but I couldn't find it. I suspect they haven't yet entered it into their on-line catalog.

Hi Larry, if I may, the correct references for, firstly, the microfiche indexes and, secondly, the actual folders of reports are:

RG 92.9.2 Missing Air Crew Reports, Air Crashes by Date: 4 September 1939-8 May 1945 (Lists of Allied air crashes prepared from German sources, 1939-45), Records of the American Graves Registration Service (AGRS) Missing Air Crew Reports, National Archives Microfiche Publication M1380, fiches 5970-5984.

RG 242.9.4 Luftgaukommando Reports pertaining to downed Allied aircraft 1939-45

The microfiche indexes, of course, only relate to aircraft of the Western Allies, and, in many cases for RAF aircraft, an individual folder for a crash isn't held at NARA, there only being a reference to the crash being in a summary telex on a file for a USAAF aircraft. The British Ministry of Defence has custody of the large collection of original reports relating to RAF aircraft, all of which remain classified.

Sadly, I think that documents from some of the original folders at NARA may have been stolen over the years, based on a small number of surveyed files that were missing summary signals referred to in the microfiche indexes.

Thanks for confirmation of the existence of the Soviet air force crash reports - I often wondered if these were declassified. I wonder if any effort was ever made to index them? I doubt it.

Cheers

Rod

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Larry, if I may, the correct references for, firstly, the microfiche indexes and, secondly, the actual folders of reports are:

RG 92.9.2 Missing Air Crew Reports, Air Crashes by Date: 4 September 1939-8 May 1945 (Lists of Allied air crashes prepared from German sources, 1939-45), Records of the American Graves Registration Service (AGRS) Missing Air Crew Reports, National Archives Microfiche Publication M1380, fiches 5970-5984.

RG 242.9.4 Luftgaukommando Reports pertaining to downed Allied aircraft 1939-45
The microfiche indexes, of course, only relate to aircraft of the Western Allies, and, in many cases for RAF aircraft, an individual folder for a crash isn't held at NARA, there only being a reference to the crash being in a summary telex on a file for a USAAF aircraft. The British Ministry of Defence has custody of the large collection of original reports relating to RAF aircraft, all of which remain classified.
Sadly, I think that documents from some of the original folders at NARA may have been stolen over the years, based on a small number of surveyed files that were missing summary signals referred to in the microfiche indexes.
Thanks for confirmation of the existence of the Soviet air force crash reports - I often wondered if these were declassified. I wonder if any effort was ever made to index them? I doubt it.
Cheers
Rod

Hi Rod,

No wonder I couldn't find it on the NARA web site. I would even suspect that a lot has happened to that collection since I last worked with it in 1985-86 at the Suitland Federal Records Center. There were whispers among the archivists (Bill Lewis, Amy Schmidt and others at that time) even back then that there had already been some pilfering. With personal effects in many of the folders, the temptation was just too great for the light-of-hand. People who steal from archives should be turned over to the Saudis and tried before a Sharia court, and we all know what sentence they dispense for theft. At that time the collection was labeled T-1033, but it was changed when everything was moved to Archives II in College Park in 1995-96.

Thanks for the update on this valuable and interesting collection, Rod. Thanks to you, researchers can now find it among NARA's vast and often confusing holdings.

Larry

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by RodM

...the existence of the Soviet air force crash reports

I am also very much interested in these reports (RUS-21 to RUS-6016). Perhaps, once identified in the archive's holdings, we could join efforts and order copies, sharing the cost? I am open to any suggestions.

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád

I am also very much interested in these reports (RUS-21 to RUS-6016). Perhaps, once identified in the archive's holdings, we could join efforts and order copies, sharing the cost? I am open to any suggestions.

I think I had better post a cautionary caveat here before anyone starts spending their hard-earned money. The Luftgaukommando Reports collection was divided up among the Four Powers (Britain, U.S., France and Russia) shortly after it was captured. The British got all the folders pertaining to downed RAF and Commonwealth aircraft, the French the French aircraft, the U.S. the American aircraft and the USSR the Russian aircraft. I am 99% certain that the 700 linear feet of folders at NARA WashDC contain just the American aircraft incidents. The original catalog labels, including RUS-21 to RUS-6016, were retained for information purposes only so future researchers would know the depth and breadth of the total collection. I have some notes on the collection as it existed when I was working it in 1985-86, and I will retrieve them and make the information available in a future posting here.

Larry

[Larry deZeng]

As promised earlier:

NARA Inventory A51-67
Date: 23 June 1952

Records of Allied Airmen Captured by the German Armed Forces

This Record Group contains 95 linear feet of German and American records of which are:

1) 21 lin.ft. of English translations.
2) 6 lin.ft. of 5 by 8 inch Photostats.
3) 7 lin.ft. of 12 by 18 inch Photostats.
4) 61 lin.ft. of captured German records.
5) 17 reels of 35 mm negative film.

The records cover the period 1943-1945 and include aircraft incidents in Germany, Holland, Belgium, France, North Sea, Italy, the Balkan countries and the Mediterranean Sea. The reports in this Record Group are from POW Transit Camp (Dulag-Luft) Wetzlar and the Evaluation Center West (Auswertungsstelle West) Oberursel/Taunus. The reports are numbered KU (reports of shot down Flying Fortresses), J (reports of shot down fighter planes), and ME (Flying Fortresses and fighter planes in the Mediterranean theater).

My notes also indicate that the portion of the overall collection in NARA possession, i.e., 95 linear feet, includes just the American aircraft/aircrew incidents. That leaves some 605 linear feet that went to Britain, France and the USSR. Also, I made note of the fact that one box did contain an index to the RUS-21 to RUS-6016 incidents, but that’s all. Item 5, I think, is the film that was used to produce the microfiche index.

Hope that helps and its catches those who were reaching for their wallets in time.

Larry