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Old 22nd August 2013, 18:33
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Was there ever any "official" Soviet history written covering Air Force operations during the brief Polish Campaign of Sept., 1939?

Hello,

For the Polish Campaign part of the "Eagles Over Europe" project I'm trying to locate sources for Soviet Air Force operations against eastern Poland during Sept., 1939. Was there any "official" history of this campaign ever published in the Soviet Union that covered their air Order of Battle, or their brief operations during that campaign?

Surely some records exist somewhere in Russia on that subject. Does anyone have any information or sources that would help us cover the Soviet part of the story of the PC?

Who can help?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
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Old 23rd August 2013, 16:32
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Was there ever any "official" Soviet history written covering Air Force operations during the brief Polish Campaign of Sept., 1939?

Rather, I do not think. It is just boring for Russian historians. Virtually nothing has happened, a few dozen air combat and bombing and all that.
In each log Soviet Army and the fronts are notes on the use of Soviet aviation. Without more details. Actually topic is not very interesting for the Russians. "Almost" without fire, and a great loss. Larger losses were in training than during the battles over Poland.
Just boredom.

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mw
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Old 23rd August 2013, 20:14
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Was there ever any "official" Soviet history written covering Air Force operations during the brief Polish Campaign of Sept., 1939?

Hello Mirek,

Our main PC researcher has used your small, but valuable book, "Czerwone Gwiazdy – sojusznik czarnych krzyzy nad Polska” ("Red Stars-An Ally of Black Crosses over Poland"), Warszaw, 2008, as a reference, and we've already matched everything that we can against Polish and German records. From this and our own exhaustive research (1250 single-spaced typewritten pages just on the Polish side), we know that there was very little air-to-air combat, and very few a/c lost on either side in actions against the Soviets.

Obviously, with the entire surviving Polish Air Force evacuating to Romania on 17.09.39, that left almost no opportunity for combat with Polish air units. However, I'm thinking that there must have been some bombing and ground attack missions flown by the Soviets until the last resistance by Polish ground forces on the Eastern Front was overcome. Any Soviet losses during these missions would have been operational accidents or from flak. Do any records show what units dropped bombs against which targets and the dates? From your reply it appears that no significant Soviet records of these operations are known to have survived. You published the Soviet Air Order of Battle as of the beginning of this campaign, so that we at least know what Soviet air units were where when the campaign started. Since publication of your book, has any more information come to light on this subject?

Regarding photography, your book really had no really useful photos. Do you know of any surviving photos that would help us illustrate the Soviet side of the campaign, however brief and unexciting? Surely there were Soviet photographers operating with the air units at the time, although it's possible that very little or none of this photography has survived in the Russian archives. For our EoE project we are showing the daily mission tracks on our maps, plus a/c loss locations, for each day. Is there any hope of being able to add such information to the maps covering Soviet air operations?

Thanx for what you've already published, and I hope that you will share with us any additional information or photos that you might have acquired on this subject.

Does anyone else have anything to add to what Mirek has already done on this subject?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator
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Old 24th August 2013, 15:25
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Was there ever any "official" Soviet history written covering Air Force operations during the brief Polish Campaign of Sept., 1939?

From the time of the book (2008) there are three new articles I wrote in Poland, which are about air war over Poland (Polish-Soviet air war). They are a big development issues that touched upon in the book (new information, additional photos ect.).

Disruptive lack of information on the Polish-Soviet war. There are a few small, new materials. But for Russians the whole subject is, as I wrote previously, most commonly in the world of dull and uninteresting. The total lack of interest, boredom.

For photos are those that published would give new and interesting captions. I already know which units are facing planes and what the airports. This is important. On the subject of aerial photographs, airports knowledge actually very moved. Five years ago I did not know what I know now. New, different quality.

For photos it all depends on who they're looking for? Very subjective thing

Of course you're right, they were minor bombings and attack until the beginning of October 1939. Recent air attacks were against a group of Wilhelm Orlik-Rückemanna and soldiers of GO "Polesia" gen. Kleeberga), practically most of them were written by me.

To sum.
In general it matters little since then has changed since 2008. In matters of many different parts there are new interesting information, clarifying, correcting what I did not know at the time of writing the book. Progress is good but not as great as you think, :-)
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Old 24th August 2013, 22:50
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Was there ever any "official" Soviet history written covering Air Force operations during the brief Polish Campaign of Sept., 1939?

In issue No. 117 (Dec. 2002) of the French magazine Avions, there is one page related to the air activity over Poland on 17 Sept. 1939 and beyond.
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Old 25th August 2013, 23:01
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: Was there ever any "official" Soviet history written covering Air Force operations during the brief Polish Campaign of Sept., 1939?

Larry,


Regarding Polish troops on the ground, after the ammunition was gone, where were they going to get more? The British and the French mounted no military actions to aid Poland. The average Polish soldier was immediately outgunned, with many leaving the country and reforming under the command of General Anders as described in his book, An Army in Exile. The Poles would end up joining forces with the British primarily. My father was in the Polish Army and like all World War II veterans I knew, rarely spoke about the war. He did what he could but after being separated from his unit, out of food and ammunition, he was captured by German troops. Since his country no longer existed, he was sent to a Forced Labor camp in Germany. He referred to the SS as "crazy" and when word reached him they were in his area, he hid in a cave until they passed.

The German attack was expected, the Russian attack was a surprise.



Best,
Ed
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Old 25th August 2013, 23:57
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: Was there ever any "official" Soviet history written covering Air Force operations during the brief Polish Campaign of Sept., 1939?

And if you're looking for a good source of Russian language books about their role in the Great Patriotic War, I recommend:


https://www.collectrussia.com/showcat.htm?cat=EASTBOOK


It may take a bit of digging.

Usual disclaimer.



Best,
Ed
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Old 28th August 2013, 22:06
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Was there ever any "official" Soviet history written covering Air Force operations during the brief Polish Campaign of Sept., 1939?

Dénes & Ed,

Thanx for your comments. There is frustratingly little information on the Russian side of the Polish Campaign air war, even to this day, more than 70 years later. Other than the few accounts that we already now have due to the work done by Mirek, it appears unlikely that we will be able to find out much additional information on this subject.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
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  #9  
Old 29th August 2013, 12:28
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Was there ever any "official" Soviet history written covering Air Force operations during the brief Polish Campaign of Sept., 1939?

I do not understand your frustration. After all, it is a great challenge and an opportunity. Almost no one wants to write this subject. So, as soon as possible to work :-)

Probably, about two years ago I talked with Mark Sołoninem (Russian came to Warsaw for the promotion of his book published in Poland). He is the author of several interesting books on Soviet aviation in 1941 (most are renowned "22 June 1941" and "The sleeping peacefully airports / "Na mirno spiaszczych aerodromach.")
Immediately I asked him this question, but why not move the Soviet aviation theme of the Polish. Brief - no to write home about, no sensationalism, drama. Theme is practically not marketable. And now, that is just a regular boring. No fire & smoke, :-)

In Russia (Moscow) does not have a practice flight magazine, which came out in the 90s There appeared a number of interesting material written by various fans (Mir Awiacji, Istori Awiacji, Awiacja, ect). Practically magazines do not come for several years. Sometimes the articles contained therein have a very high level. Left magazine "Awiacja i Kosmonawtika", but that's not it. A great pity.



Additional articles that I have written and published them in Poland after 2008. They give a lot of additional information or corrections with respect to what is provided in the book. In particular, Article 1 and 3 You can always find new interesting information.

1) Siergiej Gricewiec, 14 b&w photos, 1 colour of I-16 typ 10, [in:] Lotnictwo nr 9/2012, pp. 76-83. http://www.magnum-x.pl/czasopismasec/lw/2242catid=1

2) Lotnictwo sowieckie nad Kresami w 1939 r. (Soviet Aviation over Borderlands in 1939), 21 b&w photos [in:] Lotnictwo nr 10/2011, pp. 68-77. http://magnum-x.pl/index.php?option=...id=1&Itemid=11

3) Ostatnie biało-czerwone szachownice (Recent white and red chessboards), 16 b&w photos [w:] Aero Magazyn Lotniczy nr 1 styczeń-marzec (20)/2009, pp. 4-13, http://www.kagero.eu/aero/51-aero-20...ne-szachownice


Regards,
mw
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Old 4th September 2013, 03:00
ftrbmr ftrbmr is offline
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Re: Was there ever any "official" Soviet history written covering Air Force operations during the brief Polish Campaign of Sept., 1939?

http://rkka.ru/handbook/ozuzb/9-4.htm

Soviet aircraft regiments for invasion of Poland 17.9.39-28.9.39
Glossary below russian text.

Авиационные полки
Наименование Периоды вхождения в состав Действующей армии
2 легко-бомбардировочный авиационный полк
2 истребительный авиационный полк
3 тяжелый бомбардировочный авиационный полк
3 штурмовой авиационный полк
4 истребительный авиационный полк
5 скоростной бомбардировочный авиационный полк
5 легко-бомбардировочный авиационный полк
5 штурмовой авиационный авиационный полк
6 легко-бомбардировочный авиационный полк
7 штурмовой авиационный полк
10 истребительный авиационный полк
11 легко-бомбардировочный авиационный полк
12 истребительный авиационный полк
13 скоростной бомбардировочный авиационный полк
14 штурмовой авиационный полк
15 истребительный авиационный полк
17 истребительный авиационный полк
18 скоростной бомбардировочный авиационный полк
19 истребительный авиационный полк
20 истребительный авиационный полк
21 истребительный авиационный полк
23 истребительный авиационный полк
25 истребительный авиационный полк
28 истребительный авиационный полк
31 истребительный авиационный полк
31 скоростной бомбардировочный авиационный полк
33 скоростной бомбардировочный авиационный полк
33 истребительный авиационный полк
35 истребительный авиационный полк
39 скоростной бомбардировочный авиационный полк
40 скоростной бомбардировочный авиационный полк
41 истребительный авиационный полк
43 истребительный авиационный полк
44 легко-бомбардировочный авиационный полк
44 скоростной бомбардировочный авиационный полк
46 истребительный авиационный полк
48 скоростной бомбардировочный авиационный полк
52 ближне-бомбардировочный авиационный полк 1 бомб.авиабригады
52 скоростной бомбардировочный авиационный полк 10 скор.бомб.авиабригады
54 скоростной бомбардировочный авиационный полк
58 скоростной бомбардировочный авиационный полк



2 Light Bomber Aviation Regiment
2 Fighter Aviation Regiment
3 Heavy Bomber Aviation Regiment
3 Assault Aviation Regiment
4 Fighter Aviation Regiment
5 High-speed Bomber Aviation Regiment
5 Light Bomber Aviation Regiment
5 Assault Aviation Regiment
6 Light Bomber Aviation Regiment
7 Assault Aviation Regiment
10 Fighter Regiment
11 Light Bomber Aviation Regiment
12 Fighter Regiment
13 High-Speed Bomber Regiment
14 Assault Aviation Regiment
15 Fighter Regiment
17 Fighter Regiment
18 High-Speed Bomber Regiment
19 Fighter Regiment
20 Fighter Regiment
21 Fighter Regiment
23 Fighter Regiment
25 Fighter Regiment
28 Fighter Regiment
31 Fighter Regiment
31 High-Speed Bomber Regiment
33 High-Speed Bomber Regiment
33 Fighter Regiment
35 Fighter Regiment
39 High-Speed Bomber Regiment
40 High-Speed Bomber Regiment
41 Fighter Regiment
43 Fighter Regiment
44 Light Bomber Aviation Regiment
44 High-Speed Bomber Regiment
46 Fighter Regiment
48 High-Speed Bomber Regiment
52 Short-range Bomber Aviation Regiment; 1 bomber aviation brigade
52 High-Speed Bomber Regiment; 10 fast bomber aviation brigade
54 High-Speed Bomber Regiment
58 High-Speed Bomber Regiment
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