Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Have suspected for sometime that a Kommandeur could pick his wingman/witness, and therefore a Kommandeur is far more likely to be able(if he desired) to make fake claims.

By plotting claims I thought those were:-

Rudorffer/Tangermann
Kirschner/Bartels
Nowotny/Schnorrer

I had speculated that Hahn the Kommandeur of II./JG64 was using Stotz of 4./Jg54, in fact Stotz's claims were not explosive until Hahn arrives, and after Hahn's loss they return to being steady. I have just found the loss papers for Hahn and indeed Stotz was with him at the time. I wouldn't mind betting our "over-claimers" researchers can undermine these two.

Keep well

Johannes

[VtwinVince]

I think you'll need to produce some genuine evidence before making sweeping claims. And the 'overclaiming rabbit hole' needs to be more actively pursued on both sides.

[Johannes]

Not such sweeping claims. All other spectacular claimers with the exception of Marseille have proved to be "over-claimers", and proved being the proof i.e claims versus losses.

This can't be incomplete losses data as some high scoring, though unspectacular claimers have been given the thumbs-up. Classic example Helmut Lipfert thumbs-up by researchers.

Spectacular pilots I can usually say who they worked it with, but unable to say with Hartmann or Batz, yet I am told it is so, and told so by dedicated researchers.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by VtwinVince

I think you'll need to produce some genuine evidence before making sweeping claims. And the 'overclaiming rabbit hole' needs to be more actively pursued on both sides.

Overclaiming of Allied pilots is discussed since the end of the war. Those were German victories which were portrayed as modest, absolutely accurate, and not debatable. It is funny to see a fury when they are put in doubt, among those, who did not hesitate to blame Allied pilots.
The evidence is all around, there are combat reports, mission reports or loss reports for Allied combatants, and it is possible not only to establish if there were any losses, but also if there were any engagements. If there are victories submitted at the time and place no Allied aircraft operated at all, what is the explanation?
Mind you, the opposite is not possible, the German paperwork is fragmentary at best.

[VtwinVince]

I'm not 'blaming' anyone or trying to establish some sort of moral high ground. But I do see much zeal, on this and other forums, to attempt to call into question German claims without similar impetus given to the other side.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Every human being has his demons to fight.
Some of us win while others loose

In war or other desperate times it all depends on what kind of leadership we have.

In the German case, it is easy to see where the "losers" went. With such a system as the Germans adopted
"ruthless" individuals could all to easily manipulate the system.
But it was there just for the taking and just like today there are always individuals ready to use whatever
it takes.

For the Russians it was more or less the same. Manipulated by the Government the coveted HSU
was probably overwhelming to many, resulting in an incredible overclaiming.

In Japan it was the codex of the past that counted. And nobody ever questioned that, resulting in
probably the worst overclaiming of the war.

On the Allied side it is more difficult so see the benefit, even if the "aces" were glorified as well.
So far most researchers seems to believe the Allied overclaimed in good faith, but I think there were
enough "culprits" among them as well, even if the German aces have so far been the focus on TOCH.

Me? Oh I think all systems regardless of leadership always lead up to individuals using the system
to their benefit.

Human nature - Darwin if you like - survival of the fittest, either in nature itself, or the systems created....

Likeability? Don't ask since it depends on where you and me belongs.....

Cheers
Stig

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by VtwinVince

I'm not 'blaming' anyone or trying to establish some sort of moral high ground. But I do see much zeal, on this and other forums, to attempt to call into question German claims without similar impetus given to the other side.

This applies to the Eastern Front because information on Soviet losses became available, and turned a bot of a shock. Nobody bothers with the ETO or MTO because it is not spectacular, there is no paperwork available online and the information about Luftwaffe are scarce.

Stig

In most cases it was victory award system responsible. RAF was a bit liberal at first, but then became strict, and since 1943 it seems that credited victories are fairly accurate. USAAF remained liberal to a degree. I cannot say for USN or USMC. IJN or IJA - nobody was able to tell me, how the system worked, and even claimed there was no such system at all, and no victories were ever claimed. Not sure if true, but if so, they certainly did not overclaim. I cannot say anything about Soviets, but financial awards for downed enemy aircraft may have contributed towards overclaiming.
Still, those were Germans who were credited with the greatest numbers of victories, claimed to be confirmed by absolutely reliable and sophisticated system, contrary to others. Propaganda in this regard was very strong until recently, so no wonder it is now being debunked, much to pain of some.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

we all known of the British "ace" Douglas Bader's claims, and lack of actual truthful victories. Post war he published a book about his "aceness" but it was proposed that a National hero should not pat tax for his efforts. Yet Stanford Tuck, and Johnny Johnson were honest British aces.

If the truth was known Günther Rall and Gerhard Barkhorn would be the top aces, with top medals, not merely other Schwerter winners.

Stotz I feel was led astray by Hahn, yet just as Stotz leaves the seen, another great "over-claimer" begins his run of unbelievable claims........Emil Lang, so somewhat endemic within the Staffel, but I do not believe all pilots even within this Staffel were doing such things.

These "super over-claimers" sure seemed to cause inflation when it came to medals.

Keep Well

Johannes

[VtwinVince]

Hmmm, I agree with a deeper study of all claims. I don't think any participant in the last wars was innocent of the abuse of propaganda and the associated releasing of ridiculous figures to bolster morale. Just have a look at the ludicrous figures given out by the English during the BoB.

[Franek Grabowski]

I am not aware of Bader lacking actual victories, though no doubt his choice of Spitfire VA was weird one and reduced chances of scoring victories.
Cannot say anything about Stanford-Tuck.
Johnson's victories are listed on Wiki with an attempt to attribute losses. Does not look spectacular, I would say about average.

Basically, the problem starts after the Battle of Britain, where there are no details of German losses or operations in general. In the effect it is extremelly hard to match combatants of both sides. Funnily enough, it looks that JG 26 attributed all aircraft downed in their area to their pilots, not knowing actual reasons of losses. So a kind of hidden overclaim.