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  #11  
Old 11th May 2013, 15:32
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Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue

All right, if this is dark blue or deep blue or other variant of blue, why in first post is in bold noted

Quote:
darkgreen variation of RLM 81
Dark green variation of brown green? Anyway nice kit build
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  #12  
Old 11th May 2013, 17:12
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Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue

Wasn't there a comparison years ago to a set of Blohm & Voss paint chips that clearly showed RLM 83 as dark green?

Then again the names were invented by the aircraft manufacturers who often called the same colour different things. The standards changed in late 44 through 1945 problems are obvious, with the lack of needed funds and materials so did the changes in paints occur, take for example RLM 76 which changed from a sky-blue to tints of white grey, white-blue, shades of green-blue, grey-blue, etc., etc.

As far as the dark blue JU88 landing in Sweden, it could very well be 24. Depends how worn the paint was, how thick, primers used underneath if any, sun bleached, lots of factors influencing the description. But being a previous unknown colour, perhaps, but I doubt it.
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  #13  
Old 11th May 2013, 18:24
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Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
All right, if this is dark blue or deep blue or other variant of blue, why in first post is in bold noted...
Dark green variation of brown green? Anyway nice kit build
Interesting!
I didn't understand that sentence like that!
It is said: A dark green variation of RLM 81 was formerly "known" - that is named - RLM 83. And named from what? This is exactly why JCM did ask "show me the documentation"; and no one answered since then.

Michael is not writing that his RLM 83 Dark blue was a dark green variation of Brown green, does he?

Regards, Franck.
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  #14  
Old 11th May 2013, 18:29
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Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue

For me JCM is the leader in the field
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  #15  
Old 11th May 2013, 19:25
Michael Ullmann Michael Ullmann is offline
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Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue

all,
thanks for all of your replies. Interesting to read all these information. Espacialy to read that some one dig out colour charts from Blowm & Voss. I hope we will soon see scans of this documents. I have scans of my documents.
For me as a German (I am no English native) it is sometimes hard to describe the sense what I would like to say. Let me point out a few things for clarivikation
- RLM 83 was Darkblue
- The formerly described "Darkgreen" RLM 83 is a darkgreen RLM 81 variation
- Darkgreen RLM 83 never exist (or have anyone an original surface protection list of a Luftwaffe aircraft that decribed that?)
- The solution for all these variation of RLM 81 and 82 is that RLM couldn't provided colour chips to their quality assurance. Therefore the right colour of the paint was never quality controled (Check Sammelmitteilung 1, my second edition Hikoki, page 343 "camouflage for Gliders", second row, second sentence, beginning with: Delivery of colur charts .....). This is a fact allways completly overseen in all the discussion over the years.

Looking forward to read your replies
Best Regards from Germany
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  #16  
Old 11th May 2013, 21:35
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Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue

I would feel a whole lot happier about the FSM thread if it didn't contain statements like "I came across a total goldmine in a dusty archive" and "I was lucky enough to find a ... Panther 'G' tank ... while on holiday and swimming in a river."

That's one hell of a lot of luck but precious few specifics. What's more, snapdragonxxx elaborates on the chaos of the last weeks of the war but asks us to accept that in the midst of that someone nevertheless managed to compile a tri-service paint chart including unit-level variants. And then — more luck — a model paint company is found to have achieved 99.9% accuracy without benefit of the "goldmine."

It will be great if this document exists and is everything snapdragonxxx says but its credibility would be helped enormously by the provision of proper references that anyone could cross-check. That would be good history and good science. All we have at present is a good story.
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  #17  
Old 12th May 2013, 09:59
Cpt_Farrel Cpt_Farrel is offline
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Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue

It's great that you Michael have signed on here to answer our questions, I really appreciate it! Now for a couple of questions. First off, you wrote in Crandalls book on the Fw190D that 81, 82, and well, green 81, was equal to RAL 8019, 6003 and 6006, I always assumed that these shades would be widely known by the manufacturers so that such accuracy issues would be avoided?

Also, the brown found on surviving aircraft like the 109 in the Australian war memorial museum for example is quite far from 8019 but the samples found on pieces from other aircraft seems to match each other quite well suggesting to me that it was quite a reliable color, just like RLM 82.

Again, as you mentioned that brown-tinted versions of 81 and 82 were tested in 1943(?) couldn't it be that both 81 and 82 were actually issued in green and brown?

For camouflage purposes the contrast between colors was most important but the contrast between the medium brown color and 82 would have been really low. And again, if the dark green, and medium brown were both 81, that means a lot of aircraft were painted in 81/81, that just seems so strange to me.

I have a feeling we are missing a part of the puzzle here!

Cheers / Anders
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  #18  
Old 12th May 2013, 12:16
Michael Ullmann Michael Ullmann is offline
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Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue

Hola,
there no missing part of the puzzle.

First, when I wrote the text for Jerry's book I describe the knowledge base then. Today the text must be updated with my latest research results. Text in a book could only be a snap-shoot of the knowledge then.

And again you must keep in mind that the RLM released a ,today undiscovered (Keep in mind the also today undiscovered "Tarnatlas" published in 1944 and mentioned in Sammelmitteilung 2), regulation that old stock of paint must used up before the new should be used. If you have uneven stocks of old and new paint, you must use the old colour with the new one. I am pretty sure this leads to RLM 70 or 74/82 and RLM 81/71 or 75 painted aircrafts. And the RLM 81 or 70/75 combination leads to the formerly known "RLM 83 darkgreen/75" combination.

Best Regards
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  #19  
Old 12th May 2013, 13:01
DeMePhi DeMePhi is offline
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Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue

Just to add to the mystery: Michael, did you had the information of Tomas Poruba and the late Eric Larger concerning the late war paints? See http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2...w-discoveries/

Always interested in your study... Remember Forshungsanstalt Amsterdam...

Very best regards,

Philippe
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  #20  
Old 12th May 2013, 13:09
Cpt_Farrel Cpt_Farrel is offline
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Re: Hornets nest or RLM 83 Darkblue

I wouldn't say it adds to the mystery, on the contrary it supports the idea of a dark green version of RLM81 as put forward by Mr Ullmann.

/Anders
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