Victory Markings - Authenticity and Identification

[harrison987]

A friend of mine has these Victory Markings. All the fabric is original...but something seems strange about a few of them. Every photo I have seen of Victory Marking being painted, they are done really neatly and precise. Some of these are really sloppy. Of course, in the middle of battle, who knows...

All originally came from a German historian who collected a lot of skin and fabric, many of which he recovered himself from various wrecks. Some, however came from Russia. When I hear something came out of Russia, I immediately cringe, due to the amount of fakes...

The one with the multiple LaGG kills is NOT from any fighter I know of, due to the circular metal ring on the left. No Me109 or Fw190 had that ring...so what fighter?

At the end of this thread are pics of the rest of his collection, all which I can tell immediately are 100% original.

My questions are below:



No issues with the one above.






No issues here either...







No issues here either...but the circular patch is odd...not for any fighter I know of. usually these patches covered bolt holes and bullet holes. As the paint is consistent, I have ruled out bullet hole patch...so must be a bolt patch, no?





Sloppy? Thoughts?





That metal ring on the left is NOT Me109 or Fw190...so what other fighter could have downed LaGG 7 and Pe-2's? Again really sloppy...Note the letters and numbers...and compare to the skin below...possibly faked as writing seems to be the same? Date one one is October 1941...should this be in winter cam? Or possibly added again in the spring when back to summer camo?






Thoughts?





No problem here.




Sloppy...and really dark. Is it me, or does the writing stop BEFORE the cracks? Check out the 5 in top row and the 9 in the bottom.





No issues here...

[Johannes]

Hi

Am I correct in thinking that the LaGG-7 didn't make an entrance until the Spring of 1943, and yet there is a I-16(which should have died out by then) dated 1st October 1941 seemingly after the LaGG-7's, which if so doesn't make any sense!

Regards

Johannes

[harrison987]

You are right!!!!



That fabric appears to be fake!!

mmmmmmmmmmmmm...any thought on the rest?

Mike

[harrison987]

Hey Steve!

I don't have any problems with any of the Swastikas.

The last photo depicts all fabric pieces, mounted on white board. The red "paint" is either the normal colour of the German fabric (which was a dark red) or typical RLM primer, used on wood/tail surfaces.

The Kills on the B-17/P-38 piece are not necessarily the same day, time, or event. They could have been many weeks (or months) apart. If there was a date showing all 3 at the same time, I would be skeptical...but not necessarily in this case.

Mike

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

Turn the piece with the I 16, LaGG 7 etc upside down.

Regards,
Andreas B

[harrison987]

Nah...

It still is not right. The hole with the metal ring is not part of the tail of any Me109, Fw190, or Me110. There were no other fighter/destroyers in 1941 that would have had that ring.

Also, when writing the aircraft names, all writing was done bottom to top...not top to bottom. I have not seen it done any other way.

Mike

[Graham Boak]

There's no reason to doubt the co-existence of the I-16 and Pe2 on chronological grounds. Both were in evidence when 151 Wing was at Murmansk with their Hurricanes. The Russians continued using the I-16 alongside the Hurricanes for many months after that.

[Don Pearson]

Originally Posted by harrison987

Nah...

It still is not right. The hole with the metal ring is not part of the tail of any Me109, Fw190, or Me110. There were no other fighter/destroyers in 1941 that would have had that ring

about that ring... just a thought, but I am looking at "Luftwaffe Aces in WWII" (the Green Arrow book), and at the bottom of each Bf109 rudder there is depicted a ring next to the hinge. I know, it's only a painting, but could it be what we are seeing?

There is a photo of Galland's 5819 where 3 rings are visible, each adjacent to the rudder hinge. At least 2 appear to be patched over.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_q3qkaihZFz...ndporttail.jpg

Check also the hole near the bottom of these rudders
http://www.pbase.com/dux/image/37179231
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:He...109_rudder.JPG
Don

[harrison987]

Hey Don,
The hole on the Me109 rudder is just a hole in the fabric to access the bolt. There was no metal ring. Also this hole is way to small.

The hole on this Russian fabric is way too high...meaning if it were Me109, the bottom row of markings would not even be on the rudder.

I don't question Pe2 and I-16...but I do question LaaG7 (1944) flying alongside I-16 (out in 1943)...

Mike