Info Needed on Me109 G6 W.Nr. 20451

[harrison987]

Hey guys,

So far, I have the following info:

Uffz. Alfred Uhl
9./JG.52
Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. 20451
Gelbe 7

Does anyone else have further info?

TIA

Mike

[G.R.Morrison]

Bf 109G-6 WNr.20451 marked as "Doppelwinkel" of the III/JG 52, damaged 22.Sept. 1943 in a belly-landing due to engine trouble during a Werkstattflug by Fw. Hermann Wolf (one of the long-serving members of the 'Karayastaffel'), Fl.Pl. Uman.
References: Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, XII/2, p.499; Barbas, III./JG 52, p.313

I'm curious, what is your source for Uhl? [Wolf seems to have preferred '7']

GRM

[harrison987]

Hi,

Well...the wreck was found recently...but it "looks" like a high impact wreck, as opposed to a belly landing. Cockpit and firewall are a completely crumpled mess.

Werk # is 100% correct, as the main data number was found.

The dig team gave me the above info...so not sure how they came up with the info, as no pilot found at wreck sight. Maybe just mis-information?

This is further info that I was just given...source I do not know.

August 17, 1943 at 5:52; Bf109 G-6 W.Nr. 20451 "Gelbe 7" was lost in a dogfight with enemy fighters. Shot down by an La-5, 8 km south-east of Raisins (south-east of Kharkov, Ukraine) and went missing.

Maybe it was Wolf's bird...but was lost when piloted by Uhl? Either way, the dates do not make sense, as it overlaps (the above 100% loss is before the belly-landing loss).

Any photos of the bird?

Mike

[Jim P.]

OK, so here is (was) the problem with this loss. Per the Gen.Qu. reports, Uhl was lost in WNr. 20541. (see attachments - I checked the original loss report to be sure it matched)

Per Barbas & Prien, the WNr. was 20451. Usually, as I was entering loss data to my db, unless there was a WNr. conflict, I stuck with the WNr. as reported, in this case for Uhl, WNr. 20541, per the primary source.

But to add to the confusion, both Prien & Barbas recorded the WNr. & code for the machine Wolf flew on 22-Sep as '<<', WNr. 20451, which, now that I go back and review Wolf's FB, appears to be a misreading of Wolf's FB entry for that date. Note that the quote marks for WNr. 20451 stop at 15-Aug-43, and that the next entry for 22-Sep says '<<' with no WNr. is listed.

I think this should resolve the conflict. Would appreciate any comments to this.

[Vince Malfara]

Intriguing and based on Wolfs FB and with your findings it is starting to make sense, great work.
It's possible that Uhl may have bailed out and died elsewhere, therefore the lack of a body in a crumpled a/c.

Vince...

[harrison987]

Soooooooo...

Based on the FB...20451 was flown by Hermann Wolf...until August 15 or so.

Uhl, never flew 20541 (this was a clerical error)...and actually flew the same bird (20451), and crashed 2 days later...August 17th....which is why Wolf's FB entry changes to "<<" (Sept. 22)...AFTER that August 17 loss date.

Same airplane...2 pilots using her...one crashed her.

Correct?


Mike

[Jim P.]

Don't know. Not having the NLV (casualty) report, I have no why of knowing what happened. If the pilot evaded capture and returned we might know more, but given that neither Prien or Barbas mention any of that type of detail, we'll likely never know for sure, but they do record the WNr. as 20451. (And presumably one or the other, or both have the casualty report for Uhl.)

[Jim P.]

To Mike,

Yes, but his last recorded flight in the machine was on 15-Aug-43. His next sortie in his FB was on 22-Sep. Note that both Prien & Barbas record the WNr. of the machine he flew on 22-Sep as WNr. 20451 - but go back and look at his FB entries (attached). Per his FB he last flew WNr. 20451 on 15-Aug. The repeated quote marks stop on the 15th (flt #1241), his next recorded flight is on 22-Sep ('<< +', flt #1242) - no quote marks, different machine. NOT WNr. 20451 - lost on 17-Aug!! Then from 26-Sep he is flying WNr. 20070. Appears to be a misreading of the FB by Prien & Barbas - if I'm seeing this incorrectly - I'm more than happy to be corrected.

[harrison987]

Thanks Jim!

Question...

Where can I get a copy of the FB?

Mike

[RT]

Harrison,

I could help

Rémi