Natural metal Spitfires.

[Andy Mac]

If I remember correctly P51 pilots would wax the wings of bare metal aircraft and add a good few miles per hour to their top speed - a matter of life or death !

[atckyrre]

According to Yiannis Mansolas several Spitfire Vb/c were delivered in natural metal to the Greeks as they were about to return home in the Autumn of 1944. These Spits apparently came from Australian Squadrons and in several cases had been painted with sharkmouths already.
I have asked Yiannis if he can verify this information but haven't received a straight answer. Nevertheless there's no doubt some Greek spitfires flew in natural metal OR painted silver after arrival in Greece.

Here's a link where this is mentioned btw

http://imansolas.freeservers.com/Ace...Spitfires.html

Kyrre

[Franek Grabowski]

Graham
No Ar 234 flew at high altitude and actually it took some years to improve altitude of jet aircraft - for long years Spitfire XIXs were undisturbed over the Soviet Union. So altitude is out of question.
Concerning puttying, yes, joints and overlaps were puttied, including the leading edge. Weight of a complete paintjob was in the area of 15kgs IIRC. The only advantage was that the natural metal finish was much easier to maintain.
Mgs were quite often removed from home based Spitfires and for a good reason, they were useless. See for example famous BS456 UZ-Ż (UZ-Z and dot if not visible) with two mgs removed.

[Graham Boak]

Jet engines are, and always were, superior at altitude to piston engines. The Germans used Me 262s to intercept PRU Mosquitos. I bow to your knowledge of the Ar234 operations in Italy, though it does surprise me a little. I suspect it may have more to do with climb to high altitudes taking time, early jets being highly limited in endurance.

The other parts of the intercept problem are the warning available and the rapid climb to an intercept point of the interceptor. Given the short duration of the mission, and the speed advantage of the Ar 234, I would not rule out the stripping of specific airframes in an attempt to improve intercept performance. However, at the moment we lack any evidence that this is the reason for these bare-metal Spitfires. It could simply be the mindless following of US fashion.

[Juha]

Hello Graham

Sorry I don't have a lightest idea. I thought that easiest possibility would be David Brown's Carrier Fighters (1975) but a quick browse didn't produce a positive result. So Your guess is as good as mine. Could be any book on Spit/Seafire, someone's memoirs, or an article in some aviation magazine, for example in an old Aeroplane Monthly.

Sorry being unable to help

Juha

[Franek Grabowski]

Yes, jet engines are quite different from the piston ones. It is clearly visible on performance charts. My point is that early jet engines did not offer good altitude performance. MiG-15 was the first Soviet jet to outperform Spitfire LF.IX at high altitude and allowed to phase the latter out.
Interceptions of Mosquitoes - I suppose it was a matter of initial climb and speed that allowed to intercept them, as I do not think Mossies were flying at extreme altitudes. Spitfire XIX should have been unreachable.
Finally, I agree on your comment on NM Spits. We do not know why they were stripped. I know why Tom Neill stripped his own but that is another story.

[stefaan]

Hi Guys.
Thanks for all the responces.
The SAAF operated 2 NM Spitfires HF MK IX's MH993 and MA792 as high altidude
intercepters to catch the Ju 86/88 over Alexandria in 1943.
I have a photo in our book SAAF at War p47.
It was loaned to different sqns as they asked for help with HF Recce a/c.
The photo shows them with 41 SAAF.
These were converted by removing radio and 1 set of 20mm to reduce weight in 1 of the pair.
The lighter a/c got the height and speed to hit the recce a/c,thereby decompressing it forcing it to reduce height.The 2nd standard a/c with radio
then was to shoot it down at a lower height.
They are not part of the problem as they have been reported previously.
The problem is 40 sqn that sent there a/c in batches of 3 to be painted once delivered in camouflage colours.
They were photo recce a/c .
I think Steve's order that he found is very relavent.
Where did you get it and from which Wing was it Steve?
Stefaan

[Graham Boak]

Photo-recce aircraft in bare metal? I thought that the subjects were fighters? Was 40 SAAF a PR unit - I thought that was 60 SAAF with Mosquitoes? Or is this a reference to FR aircraft - fighters with a fuselage camera for low-level work?

Franek: I suspect that the PR Mk. XIX had little height advantage over the later PR Mosquitoes, but that can be settled by consulting books I don't have to hand. Certainly Mosquitoes flew recce missions over Eastern Europe in the early days of the Cold War. However, it may well be true that the MiG 15 was the first aircraft capable of (regularly?) intercepting the PR.XIX, but that has little to do with the jet/piston argument in principle. It is much more to do with the capabilities of early Russian jet fighters, the Russian Air Defence system, and the ability to route around defence centres. In the same way as the 8th AF rendered the Me 163 threat impotent by simply not flying near their bases.

[stefaan]

Hi Graham

40 SAAF was a PR sqn or FR as you call them.
3 sqn and 7 sqn were fighters.
I am not including 41 as it was for a specific duty ie to catch the PR intruders.
I have seen NM Spits in all these sqns but only in Italy.
40 sqn did Tactical recce work and 60 sqn in the Mossies Strategic recces.
Stefaan

[Franek Grabowski]

Graham
Spitfire LF.IX, the most popular or even the only available version in USSR, had a service ceiling of about 12,500m. MiG-9 theoreticaly had a service ceiling of about 12,800-13,000 but IIRC Spitfire simply flew better at altitude, while MiG suffered of several problems disallowing its combat use and was not available in quantities. MiG-15 outclassed Spit, having ceiling at 15,200m and finally replaced her in air defence units. Oh, both had RR engines.
And their enemy was initially Spitfire XIX (with performance superior to LF.IX - I think Griffon had better alt. performance rather than Merlin in Mosquitoes) and then Canberra, I think both with RR engines.
My point is not that the jet engine was a bad concept (at last jets replaced pistons), just only the level of development was not so advanced. Initially, the main advantage was superior speed and climb and not necessarily altitude. With speed advantage of about 200km/h you do not need the latter that much. Of course, the only way to intercept such a beast was to climb higher and then to build up the speed in dive. A very hard task and definetelly a job for an excellent ground control. But still, was it the reason of paint removal?