Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[Kapper]

Russell,

Thankyou for posting this.

As I suggested in my previous post, we need to firm up on the claims data that are not in the Claim's Microfilms. The claims for II./JG 52 in the claims microfilm end on 21 Dec 1944 yet has been supplemented with several claims for Hartmann (& Barkhorn) in November (see my previous post). I believe these additional claims occurred after 21 Dec 1944 and this seems to support this. I also still believe the additional Il-2 claims are not correct - it was not Hartmann's style

Regards,

Craig...

[HGabor]

Thanks Russell, very interesting. Just briefly, this is what we have info for - here without the details, as it would be waaaaay too long... I'd consider everything else as overclaims for these days:

December 23, 1944:
17 VA:

2 La-5F - 1 fighter, 1 lost orientation, couldn't find base, crashlanded (no fuel?)
1 Yak-9D - fighter (Bf 109)
1 Yak-9M - fighter (Bf 109)
4 IL-2m3 - 4 to flak

5 VA:

6 IL-2m3, plus 1 seriously damaged, repaired (131 GvShAP, S/N: 19355)
1 La-5F - engine problem, repaired after crashlanding
1 Yak-1B (331 IAD, wear and tear, scrapped. S/N: 41177)

(In 5 VA list: 2 IL-2 combat losses to fighters)


December 24, 1944:
17 VA:

12 IL-2m3 - At least 5 to flak, 1 to accident, rest probably to fighters
5 La-5F - 2 accidents, rest fighters?
2 La-5FN - 1 scrapped after dogfight,
1 Yak-9D - 1 MIA
1 Yak-1B - 1 MIA

5 VA:

8 IL-2m3 - at least 3 to flak, 1 engine problem, rest to fighters?
3 Yak-1B - MIA and fighter

Contradicting 5 VA list: 1 Yak-9 MIA, 2 IL-2 to fighters, 2 IL-2 to flak.

VVS HQ:
1 Pe-2 (48 Гв.ОРАП, S/N: 19/296) - fighter, crashlanded

Night of December 24/25, 1944:

17 VA:
2 IL-2m3 (989 ShAP) in air-raid on ground: S/N: 10687 and 18744102 without crews.

December 25, 1944:

17 VA:

3 La-5 - 1 accident, 2 to fighters
4 Yak-1B - 3 to fighters, 1 MIA
2 Yak-9D - MIA
1 Yak-9T - fighter
3 Yak-9M - fighter
3 IL-2m3 - 1 flak, 1 fighter, 1 accident
1 Po-2 biplane (282 ОАПС, S/N: 14821) - fighter (Oblt. Norbert Schmitt (3./SG 10 as 'R-5')

5 VA:

1 Yak-1B - ground collision
1 Yak-9M - ground collision
1 IL-2m3 - training flight accident

No combat loss.
Gabor

[HGabor]

Russell, just some 17 VA losses to fighters on December 24, 1944:

17 VA, 189 ShAD, 707 ShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 10270, lost at 11:07 local, after attacking German tanks in the Söréd-Bodajk-Mór area went missing, not seen again by their comrades. Pilot, Ml.lt. Nikolai Ivanovich Punkevich MIA, gunner, Vladimir Alexandrovich Zimin KIA. ~MATCHING III./SG.10 IL-2 claim at 11:05, - if German time is local!

17 VA, 189 ShAD, 707 ShAP, 2nd Sq., IL-2m3, S/N: 11350, ‘23’, lost at 11:03 local, in Bodajk-Mór area. Combat with Bf 109. Gunner, Semen Mihailovich Voronin killed, pilot, Ml.Lt. Anatolii Nikolaevich Denisenko head-injured, crashlanded at Szekszárd en route home. MATCHING I./JG.53 IL-2 claim at 11:03 - 100%!!!!, - if German time is local.

17 VA, 306 ShAD, 672 ShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 1889801, fell at Bodajk-NE, 3 km at 8:30 local, from 600 m. Group of 20 IL-2s, plane burned. Hit by Bf 109. Pilot, 3rd Sq. commander, Nikita Nikolaevich Dyakonov (HSU!!!) and gunner, Alexandr Pavlovich Pogrebnikov were KIA. Confusing story, - some say they crashlanded and burned back at Szabadszállás airbase, buried there, etc.

17 VA, 189 ShAD, 707 ShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 11368, lost at Fehérvárcsurgó-W, between 16:05-16:20 local. Attacked by fighters over the target area of Bodajk-Mór. Never seen again. Pilot, Genadii Vasilevich Valuev and gunner, Yurii Ivanovich Kasitsin were MIA.

17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 39210807 was hit by fighter near Bicske at 13:25 (11:25 local), crashlanded back at the Kiskunlacháza airbase. Frame written off, engine handed over for repair, pilot, Ml.Lt. Nikolai Semenovich Bordyugov was injured.

17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 39214036, lost while supporting their troops at the city of Székesfehérvár (in German: Stuhlweissenburg) At 13:25 (11:25 local), on their way, 8 La-5, led by Yakubovskii in combat with fighters (Bf 109s?) and Ju 87 Stukas near Bicske. Pilot, Lt. Anatolii Alexandrovich Lyubimov was MIA, probably downed by Bf 109.

17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 3810413, or 39214355, or 41210113. At 15:20 (13:20 local) 4 La-5, led by Volodin covering 8 IL-2 at 600 m over Zali??? Combat with a pair of Bf 109s. Pilot, Nikolai Stepanovich Lyadov was MIA.

Cheers,
Gabor

[HGabor]

Hartmann's 352nd:

352. 8.5.1945 8:30-9:20 Yak-9 - OVERCLAIM - Stab I./JG 52 Brünn area: at 4000 m

Eric Hartmann's probably most symbolic, 352nd victory claim on May 8, 1945 was a soviet Yak-9 fighter in the Brünn (Brno) area at 4000 m. This area was taken by the 2nd Ukrainian Front, covered by their 5th Air Army. Checking all air activity of the 3 GvIAK (fighter command of the 5 VA: 6, 13, 14 GvIADs) we can conclude, that this claim was an overclaim.

The 3 GvIAK reported neither dogfights, nor losses on May 8, 1945. The only event was a brief encounter of recce. planes and 2 Bf 109s in the Znojmo (Brünn-SW) area. But no dogfight, no losses reported. Perhaps it was just a coincidence, but Yak-3 fighter, S/N: 45(292)35 of 5 VA, 3 GvIAK, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP, 1st Sq. was repaired after mission due to radiator damage. But 85 GvIAP report clearly states that they had no combat losses in the entire month of May, 1945, plus Yak-3 No.4529235 was repaired in only 40 minutes at the base.

2nd Ukr. Front, 5 VA (90 GvShAP) lost only 3 IL-2s this day (S/N: 9884, 12854, 12888)

4th Ukr. Front, 8 VA, 565 ShAP lost 2 IL-2 (S/N: 9816, 10529), 996 ShAP 1 IL-2 (S/N: 18845111), 571 ShAP 3 new IL-10s (S/N: 1892604, 1890604, 1893203) over Czech. (Not all combat losses.)

Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Gabor,

Exceptional!!

...As usual.

Do you have anything else on the final victories. No.350 is also of course, very interesting

Nick

[HGabor]

Thanks Nick,

Hartmann's 350th claim was also a soviet Yak-9 fighter on April 17, 1945. Unfortunately no further details are known about it. Anyways, the 5 VA this day had a Yak-9 combat loss indeed, its details are known, but due to the lack of information on Hartmann's side, they cannot be compared. But let's be nice, and let's say this was a potential/legitimate victory for him:

350: 17.4.1945 - Yak-9 - POTENTIAL VICTORY - Stab I./JG 52 -

On April 17, 1945 the 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP lost a brand new Yak-9U fighter, the newest model of the Yak-9 family at that time, built in the Omsk-factory. (Zavod 166.)

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP, Yak-9U (S/N: 42166074), lost in a dogfight near Rapovice. Pilot, Gv.Capt. Egor Vasilevich Vasilevskii, (25+2 victories ace, HSU - Hero of Soviet Union) was unhurt. Between 18:00-18:30 local, he led his Yak flight against Bf 109s and Fw 190s and downed two of them. At the moment of his 2nd victory of the day, his plane was hit by (report says) flak. (But it could be fighter attack too from back, below.) He quit combat and returned to his side where he belly landed successfully.

Other fighter 'losses' in 5 VA on April 17, 1945:

5 VA, 3 GvIAK, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP, 1st Sq. has written-off a Yak-1B (S/N: 29173) due to wear and tear.

5 VA, 279 IAD, 486 IAP, La-7FN (S/N: 45210925) was lost to flak. While escorting IL-2 Sturmoviks, plane was hit by small calibre flak and belly landed at Mutenice(?). Pilot, 1Lt. Constantin Pavlovich Burikinun was unhurt, plane later repaired.

Additional info for Hartmann's 352nd claim on May 8, 1945: Beside 5 VA, 3 GvIAK, neither 5 VA, 331 IAD, nor 5 VA, 279 IAD suffered fighter losses! Missions flown by 5 VA on May 8, 1945:

142 IL-2 flew 188 missions
116 Yaks flew 180 missions
90 La-5,-7 flew 126 missions
47 Po-2 flew 129 missions
11 (511 ORAP) recce. Pe-2 flew 11 missions (one each)
9 (218 BAD) A-20G Bostons flew 9 missions (one each)
.................................................. ...........................
No fighter losses!

Cheers,
Gabor

[rof120]

"Missions flown by 5 VA on May 8, 1945:

142 IL-2 flew 188 missions
116 Yaks flew 180 missions
90 La-5,-7 flew 126 missions
47 Po-2 flew 129 missions
11 (511 ORAP) recce. Pe-2 flew 11 missions (one each)
9 (218 BAD) A-20G Bostons flew 9 missions (one each)"

I guess you mean sorties.

One sortie = one flight performed by one aircraft. 9 sorties = one flight each performed by 9 AC.

An unlimited number of AC can take part in a mission (or raid, or air attack), even more than 1,000 bombers and 700 fighters (like 1944 over Germany).

[HGabor]

Hartmann's other late claims...

345: 11.3.1945 - Yak-9 Stab I./JG 52 -
On March 11, 1945 the 17 VA lost 1 Yak-9D, 1 Yak-9M, 1 Yak-3.
5 VA lost 1 Yak-1B. This time Hartmann was stationing at Weidengut with Stab I./JG 52. From there, I think, the distance is too big to the op. area of the 5 & 17 VA, and unfortunately I have no records for others, - never researched.

349: 11.4.1945 - Yak-3 Stab I./JG 52 -
On April 11, 1945 17 VA lost 1 Yak-9M at Muraszombat (Murska Sobota, Slovenia). This time Hartmann was stationing at Raudnitz with Stab I./JG 52. From there, I think, the distance is too big to the op. area of the 5 & 17 VA, and I have no records for others, - never researched.

351: 25.4.1945 - P-39 Stab I./JG 52 -
Neither the 5th, nor the 17th Air Army that I have detailed records for used this model. What I know is that on April 25, 1945 2nd Belarus Front, 329 IAD, 66 IAP lost at least 2 Aerocobras: S/N: 44-3419 at Statgard (SIC!) and 42-18568 at Merkis-Fridland (SIC!). Both planes required new engines and radiators. Repairs were performed by 858 BAO, 13 RAB. This time Hartmann was stationing at Altkemnitz with Stab I./JG 52. I am not familiar with that region, not sure if any of these could match, or their distance was too big. No idea.

Gabor

[HGabor]

Originally Posted by rof120

"Missions flown by 5 VA on May 8, 1945:

142 IL-2 flew 188 missions
116 Yaks flew 180 missions
90 La-5,-7 flew 126 missions
47 Po-2 flew 129 missions
11 (511 ORAP) recce. Pe-2 flew 11 missions (one each)
9 (218 BAD) A-20G Bostons flew 9 missions (one each)"

I guess you mean sorties.

One sortie = one flight performed by one aircraft. 9 sorties = one flight each performed by 9 AC.

An unlimited number of AC can take part in a mission (or raid, or air attack), even more than 1,000 bombers and 700 fighters (like 1944 over Germany).

Correct, sorry.
Gabor

[Kapper]

Gabor,

Are there any losses near Brno (Brunn) on the 7th May 1945?

In all the writings I’ve seen on Hartmann’s last claim, they state that Hartmann made the claim at about 8.30am on the morning of the 8th May and soon after landing, JG52 received the news of the German surrender. Reportedly they destroyed their aircraft, organised columns and moved out from their base at Deutsch-Brod by 2.00pm and encountered a US Army Tank unit on the evening (presumably around 6pm) of the 8th May at Pizek – 120km away. They move a further 25km to Strakonitz an held there before being handed over to the Russians on the 14th May or 24th May or after 8 days in American captivity – depending on source?

However, the events described above, to me are questionable, as the original unconditional surrender document was signed at 2.41am on the morning of 7th May and under the terms:

“The German High Command will at once issue orders to all German military, naval and air authorities and to all forces under German control to cease active operations at 23.01 hours Central European time on 8 May 1945, to remain in all positions occupied at that time and to disarm completely, handing over their weapons and equipment to the local allied commanders or officers designated by Representatives of the Allied Supreme Commands. “

The Germans wanted 48hrs to be able to notify the more remote units time of the cessation of hostilities but Eisenhower would only give 48hrs from the time of the beginning of discussions, believing the Germans were using delaying tactics, thus setting the deadline of 23.01hrs 8th May (midnight British time). The Russians insisted that a second signing to occur in Berlin at the surrender time (23.01 hrs 8 May) but this was not actually signed until the early hours of the 9th May – thus differing VE days. I’m not going to go further into the politics of the surrender but just to highlight the time difference of signing to surrender which is relevant to when units would have been notified.

Anyway, the order “to cease active operations” as part of the unconditional surrender would have been sent out on the morning of the 7th May (“at once issue orders”). Most units would have been notified on the 7th and those units that were notified on the 8th May were typically the units that could not be contacted by signal, thus couriers were sent to deliver the message with the last unit reportedly ceasing combat on the Eastern Front on 13th May.

Though it’s possible that JG52 didn’t receive the order until the 8th May, in my opinion this is unlikely as they were still in communication with higher command - having also received signals for Graf and Hartmann to fly out and surrender to the British – a signal mentioned as being hidden during his captivity.

Also, Gerhard Thyben made his last claim at about 7.54am on 8th May while he was evacuating the Courland Pocket (with his mechanic as passenger) – So Thyben already knew that the war was about to be over – likely getting notified the day before (7th May) – but soon after Hartmann was on an offensive patrol, thus reportedly didn’t know the war was about to be over – this doesn’t add up to me.

Could this be another case of Tolliver/Constables dramatic writing? Fighting to the end - last victory in Europe etc.? Whatever the reasoning, this is the earliest source that I know of, that detailed the case of Hartmann’s last victory and subsequent surrender. It seems this version is what is constantly being retold!

Anyway, I believe this claim occurred on the morning of 7th May, on an offensive patrol prior to getting the surrender instruction and that the date confusion was from the fog of war, thus my question about losses on 7th May.

Regards,

Craig…