Information please: shooting down of Halifax on the night of 16/17 August, 1944

[Buddio]

Hi: I am trying to find out information about the shooting down of my father's Halifax on the night of 16/17 August, 1944. They were part of 420 Snowy Owl Squadron RCAF stationed at Tholthorpe, England. They had successfully bombed Kiel on their 35 and final mission and did not return. For many years I was told he was shot down by Flak over Kiel; however recently I got my hands on a copy of a letter from the only survivor, the Flight Engineer. At seven minutes after 2, they were shot down; two engines on fire and ditched roughly 70 nm out in the North Sea off the coast of Holland.
I have found several possibilities for the night fighter that got them, and I would like to know first of all, what was the difference in the time the Luftwaffe used and the Canadians used.
Second of all, I would like to find the translations for the map co-ordinates used in the Luftwaffe by NJG 3, as this is the likely squadron.
Thanks in advance
Buddio

[Ruy Horta]

I've moved the thread as most questions relate to the Luftwaffe and added some extra information to the title for better reference.

[mhuxt]

Luftwaffe grid reference info can be found at the excellent Gyges site:

www.gyges.dk/reporting_grids.htm

You want the LUMA Excel sheet here:

http://www.gyges.dk/LUMA.xls

and the guide here:

http://www.gyges.dk/LUMA%20Guide%20v2007%2005.pdf

Alternatively, you can grab the overall LW map here:

http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/jg26/gradnetz.htm

As for time, there is this classic post on the subject:



"This article was published in Bulletin Airwar 1939-1945 Nr. 99 page 26/27.
Time calculation 1940-1945. By Rob de Bruin/Great Bookham, England.
I have checked two sources; first my own Whitaker Almanac and I have contacted the Royal Observatory at Greenwich.
The situation is as follows:
1) In Great Britain (from now on called England) there is since 1916 summertime. In the winter they have GMT and in
the summer GMT+1.
2) Middle European Time (MET), that was the time in the Netherlands during the German occupation, was equal to GMT+1
and during the summer Middle European Time is equal to GMT+2.
3) The English introduced at February 25th, 1940 their summertime GMT+1. In the Netherlands we had Dutch Time.
This means that from February 25th, 1940 it was 40 min. later in England than in Holland. From may 16th, 1940 the
Germans introduced MET and the Dutch were one hour ahead of the English.
4) In England it was summertime during the war from February 25th, 1940 till October 7th, 1945.
5) To get more daylight went over to Double British Summertime(DBST). This was during:
a. 1941 May 4th till August 10th.
b. 1942 April 5th till August 9th
c. 1943 April 4th till August 15th
d. 1944 April 2nd till September 17th
e. 1945 April 2nd till July 15th
6) During these periods the time in England was GMT+2 and that’s the same as
MET(Summertime)
7) To make thing more clear some examples:
Date Time in Holland/Germany Time in England.
30-05-1940 12.28 11.28
22-06-1941 06.05 06.05
03-11-1942 14.18 14.18
01-04-1943 23.25 22.25
01-05-1943 20.08 20.08
06-06-1944 05.30 05.30
05-05-1945 08.00 09.00
8) The change of time was done in the early Sunday morning hours at 2.00 O’clock.
9) Here a list of dates were the German time was equal to British time.
a. 1941 May 4th till August 10th.
b. 1942 April 5th till August 9th and November 2nd till December 31.
c. 1943 January 1st till March 29th and April 4th till August 15th and from
October 4th till December 31st.
d. 1944 January 1st till April 2nd and April 4th till September 17th and October 2nd
till December 31st.
e. 1945 January 1st till April 2nd.

This is an translation of the essence of an article published in Bulletin Airwar 1939-1945 Nr.99. With many thanks
to Mr. Robert de Bruin, Great Bookham, England.
The translation has been made by Jaap Woortman."

[bill norman]

In August 1944, the RAF(and RCAF) was operating on British Double Summer Time; the Luftwaffe was operating on German Summer Time. Both times coincided and were identical.
If you give the Planquadrat number, I may be able to help. I suspect it begins with 33 or 34, although that will vary depending upon the Halifax's position off the Dutch coast.

[aroski]

Glad to have found this thread. Our Uncle Tony was ALSO onboard Halifax Mk.BIII MZ687 - as Rear Gunner. We're Canadians living in England, and by coincidence, we live only 14 miles from Tholthorpe Airfield.

We have been to the airfield recently and left a small RCAF memorial on the main runway. We explored and photographed the now-closed airfield and found the remnants of the utilitiy buildings and saw the control tower, which is now a private home.

We would be most interested if you have any further info with regards to Sgt. Proud's letter you viewed, and indeed living here, we could potentially track down and share any additional info through local archives here. For example, the old main RCAF heaquarters in the castle at Allerton Park are even closer to us than the airfield.

Fascinated to learn about NJG 3 and the exact time of the night fighter attack.

Regards,

Chris & Josie