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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

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  #11  
Old 16th March 2020, 18:20
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?

The photo I refer to has not been saved, but there was a previous discussion which mentions the aircraft having camouflage paint.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=48407
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  #12  
Old 16th March 2020, 18:42
kaki3152 kaki3152 is online now
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Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?

There was a picture posted not too long ago that showed a destroyed P-47 with the T9 code clearly visible. It looks like a early razorback without the pylons on the wing. It is just possible that this is the end of P-47D-2 -RE, s/n 42-22490, EX 355 FG, 358 FS, lost November 7,1943. There is a shot of an early razorback P-47D without pylons flying in March 1945, so it's quite possible that this is 42-22490, which means that it survived until the end of the war

Last edited by kaki3152; 12th April 2020 at 23:41.
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  #13  
Old 16th March 2020, 19:02
kaki3152 kaki3152 is online now
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Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?

The use of Luftwaffe P-47s and P-51s is still relatively unknown. While it is obvious that these captured examples were used mostly for testing and evaluation, there are recorded instances of captured P-47s and P-51s being used in and observed by Allied pilots.
In the book "Aerial Reconnaissance:the 10th PRG in WWII" by Tom Ivie, there is a sighting of a German flown P-47 (p115).:"...Lt. Ricci brought back reports of sighting a possible German flown P-47, noting that it was painted green with a bright yellow nose and tail section with black cross on the fuselage." These reported marking are perfect for the German flown Beute aircraft. Also, there was a P-51B shot down on October 29, 1944 by the 82nd Fighter Group over Austria
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  #14  
Old 17th March 2020, 05:57
Edward L. Hsiao Edward L. Hsiao is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?

Thank you for your good answers fellows.

Edward L. Hsiao
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  #15  
Old 17th March 2020, 06:40
jednastka jednastka is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?

As I understand it, the key issue was that the standard Axis aviation gasoline quality was 87 octane, much lower than the 100 octane used by Allied air forces. Getting high octane gas for the Germans was a real issue. The difference was due to the source of the gas, coal pyrolysis versus regular refining. Using low octane gas in a high octane engine would cause that engine to seize and to fail. This happened with the Italian capture P-38.


Vic
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  #16  
Old 17th March 2020, 17:14
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?

A report I read indicates that 100 octane fuel was not very much liked by the Allies. From the German side, enough Allied examples were recovered for use and while fuel was limited, it was available for test purposes. As you mention, 87 octane was common but toward the end of the war, the order was to fly missions when it was thought they could make a difference. With thousand bomber raids, sending up a squadron would not be practical.


A German report about 100 octane fuel indicates that spark plugs had to be changed regularly in Allied aircraft that used it. By that I mean more often than in aircraft that used a lower octane fuel.

Last edited by edwest2; 17th March 2020 at 17:52.
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  #17  
Old 19th March 2020, 02:22
bearoutwest bearoutwest is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jednastka View Post
As I understand it, the key issue was that the standard Axis aviation gasoline quality was 87 octane, much lower than the 100 octane used by Allied air forces. .......... Using low octane gas in a high octane engine would cause that engine to seize and to fail. This happened with the Italian capture P-38.


Vic

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.p...-the-italians/


The P-38 captured by the Italians was the only "captured" WW2 aircraft used by it's captors in actual combat (as different to "spy" missions), that I've found with documented evidence and not just hearsay. I've attached a link to the warthunder site for quick reference. Despite its appearance on the gaming site, the Regia Aeronautica P-38 combat sortie is referenced in some detail in a number of other books. (Just not at hand to quote quickly.)


...geoff
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Last edited by bearoutwest; 19th March 2020 at 02:24. Reason: ...seemed to have originally skipped a half-sentence
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  #18  
Old 19th March 2020, 11:18
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
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Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?

While the story about Col Tondi (not Rotondi and not Lt Col or Lt) is well known, the listed site also retell a "Martin Caidin type" of story about an Italian pilot named Guido Rossi, which of course is pure fiction.

That story never happened! Not even Hollywood seems to have believed in it.....since we have not even a movie about it....

Col Tondi was the chief test pilot of the Italian Test Center at Guidonia and after sufficient test flights the Lightning was used in a few scrambles against USAAF bomber attacks.
He performed one interception and shot down one USAAF B-17F, and that was it.

I seriously doubt the story about another B-17 shot down on Sept 4th.
By that time Tondi had found out through his ground staff that the fuel the Italians used had seriously damaged the Lightning's fuel tanks and the aircraft was simply very unsafe to fly at all.

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  #19  
Old 19th March 2020, 13:48
bearoutwest bearoutwest is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?

Good call, Stig.
Unfortunately, I didn't have my books handy to confirm the details on the site.


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  #20  
Old 19th March 2020, 14:50
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Sergio Luis dos Santos Sergio Luis dos Santos is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Uses Of P-47s and P-51s In Combat?

Didn´t those captured planes used to be shown to Luftwaffe´s fighter units so they could learn a libble more about the enemy? Years ago a large photo album with Brazilian pilot Egon Albrecht was sold on ebay. Here the few images with him checking some Zirkus Rozarius planes. Don´t know whether they did mock combats against their planes
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