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  #21  
Old 11th February 2017, 12:32
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

Hi Andrey,

A Do 24 crew was searching for a He 111 in Pl.Qu. 6524 between 06:05 and 10:25 on 3 August 1942. The Do 24 pilot noted that the relevant unit was II./K.G. 26. On an unrelated, note, I'll reply to your emails in the not too distant future - sorry for the delay.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
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  #22  
Old 11th February 2017, 13:35
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainer View Post
Here is the translated KTB SKL entry for the Black Sea on 3 August 1942:
Hello Rainer,

Thank you, this provides a surprising look into the limited capacities of German intelligence in the area, despite the availability of relatively numerous reconnaisance aircraft. Since I have been interested in this action for a while, I made some notes about the whereabouts of the four cruisers of the Black Sea Fleet at this time. As you will see, no cruiser apart from the Molotov was involved:

Krasnyi Krym (Красный Крым – Red Crimea) was in Batumi until 5 August, when it sailed to assist in the evacuation of Novorossiysk

Krasnyi Kavkaz (Красный Кавказ – Red Caucasus) was finishing repairs in Poti after being damaged by air attack (possibly by Stukas) on 4 January. It sailed for sea trials on 17 August.

Voroshilov (Ворошилов) had just finished repairs in Tuapse on 24 July, after suffering a turbine failure on 20 May during its last sortie to Sevastopol. There is no firm information about its location on 3 August, but it was probably not at sea.

For reference, Molotov (Молотов) spent a year in repair in Poti after the torpedo hit discussed here. The stern of the incomplete cruiser Frunze (Фрунзе) was fitted to the Molotov, which entered service again on 31 July 1943.

Warm regards,

Paul

Last edited by Paul Thompson; 11th February 2017 at 18:29. Reason: four, not five cruisers - Chervona Ukraina sunk by this time
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  #23  
Old 11th February 2017, 13:54
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

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Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
Whilst you could infer the absence of »greifen«, it just looks like the clipped language that armed forces use the world over: "From 22.45 hrs. own torpedo aircraft against Russ. formation."
Nick, thank you for a more literal translation of the original German. I agree that the reference to “torpedo aircraft” should be specific, but I am surprised by the absence of further comment, such as “n torpedoes dropped” or “hits observed”. I may be talking out of turn, for Andrey has seen the original document and I have not.

It is an interesting question in and of itself whether a He 111 H-6 LT could be converted back for use as a conventional bomber more easily than a Ju 88 A-4 LT . The pictures at the end of this link would suggest that the Heinkel conversion was relatively extensive, so my original hypothesis about the use of these aircraft as level bombers is probably wrong - https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic...-2#entry412541

I would gladly read through the material, if only I had time. On a further dive into DEFE 3, there does not appear to be any material for these specific days, but there may be something within the great HW forest!

Warm regards,

Paul
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  #24  
Old 11th February 2017, 15:37
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Thompson View Post
I would gladly read through the material, if only I had time …
Warm regards,

Paul
Well, I've only been working on it since 1989, so I haven't got all that far yet.
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  #25  
Old 11th February 2017, 18:28
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

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Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
Well, I've only been working on it since 1989, so I haven't got all that far yet.
The thirtieth anniversary is not far distant, perhaps you should celebrate that at Kew with a few other members Persistence is certainly necessary in this field.
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  #26  
Old 11th February 2017, 19:45
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

Hi Andrew,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Arthy View Post
A Do 24 crew was searching for a He 111 in Pl.Qu. 6524 between 06:05 and 10:25 on 3 August 1942.
Thank you! So He111 lost before 06:05.
Pl.Qu. 6524 - is it Luftwaffe Qu. or Kriegsmarine Qu.?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Arthy View Post
On an unrelated, note, I'll reply to your emails in the not too distant future
I'll look forward.

Cheers,
Andrey
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  #27  
Old 11th February 2017, 22:34
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov View Post
Pl.Qu. 6524 - is it Luftwaffe Qu. or Kriegsmarine Qu.?
If these coordinates are from a Luftwaffe grid, then Zusatzzahlgebiet 34 Ost provides a good match, specifically coordinates 44°52’30"N 36°35'E , a location south of the Kerch strait. This would have been along the Molotov's return route, if I understand correctly.

Warm regards,

Paul

Last edited by Paul Thompson; 11th February 2017 at 22:35. Reason: spelling error
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  #28  
Old 12th February 2017, 07:02
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

Hi Andrey,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov View Post
Thank you! So He111 lost before 06:05.
Pl.Qu. 6524 - is it Luftwaffe Qu. or Kriegsmarine Qu.?
I assumed it was the Luftwaffe Qu., given the Do 24 was flying from Feodosiya, and 6524 on the Luftwaffe grid placed it not far south of Kerch. Just had another look and realised the full Flugbuch entry was "6524, 5520, 5530, 6510. In 6524 v. 3 russ. Schnellbooten beschossen worden."

Cheers,
Andrew A.
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  #29  
Old 12th February 2017, 10:41
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

Hi Andrew,

Thank you! If Flugbuch entry was "6524, 5520, 5530, 6510", it is certainly Luftwaffe grid system.
Marine Qu. CL6524 not very far from 6524 (south-eastward).

Cheers,
Andrey
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  #30  
Old 12th February 2017, 11:27
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov View Post
If Flugbuch entry was "6524, 5520, 5530, 6510", it is certainly Luftwaffe grid system.
Marine Qu. CL6524 not very far from 6524 (south-eastward).
Hello Andrey,

Is there an online explanation of the Marine Qu. system to match that available for the Luftwaffe system?

The order and location of the areas searched is perhaps interesting:

6524 is the furthest East – 44°52'30"N 36°45'E (south of Cape Zhelezny Rog – Cape Iron Horn)

5520 and 5530 are both in Feodosia Gulf, to the West and possibly further West than the He 111 H-6 could have possibly been shot down – 44°52'30"N 35°45'E and 44°57'30"N 35°45'E

6510 is south of the Kerch Peninsula and still to the West of the location of the night action – 44°52'30"N 36°15'E (south of Cape Opuk)

There is some sense that the Do 24 crew expected a dinghy to be drifting westwards, probably due to the prevailing currents.

Warm regards,

Paul
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