combats 14/06/1938 SCW

[GMichalski]

Hi,

i know that:

In the first flight German pilot E. Kullmann (E. Kuhlmann) knocked down I-15, the pilot - the Spaniard was killed

but i ask for some info about claims for one I-16 lost same day:

In one of the following missions 32 I-15 and I-25, 16, met with 30 bombers, a group of hooded Bf-109. The commander of the group H. Glushenkov neglected by bombers and fighter jets attacked the sun, but the Germans were able to rebuff. I-16 was shot down, the pilot bailed out. And went to the Germans. H. Harder, who participated in the battle on the Non-112 V9, was very pleased that flew on the fastest plane in the group, as he barely managed to break away from the persistent-16. Generally, in this battle, the Germans had tight, so pilots "Condor" was not to commit wins - no one downed plane they do not apply.


info here:http://airaces.narod.ru/spane/livansky.htm

sorry about traduction...

Немецкий пилот Е. Кулльманн ( E. Kuhlmann ) сбил И-15, лётчик - испанец погиб. Победу над бомбардировщиком одержали Н. Глушенков и Н. Ливанский.

В одном из следующих вылетов 32 И-15 и 25 И-16 встретились с 30 бомбардировщиками, прикрытыми группой Bf-109. Командир группы Н. Глушенков пренебрёг бомбардировщиками и со стороны солнца атаковал истребители, но немцы сумели дать достойный отпор. 1 И-16 был сбит, пилот выпрыгнул с парашютом. Досталось и немцам. Х. Хардер, участвовавший в этом бою на Не-112 V9, был весьма рад, что летал на самом быстром самолёте в группе, так как ему с трудом удалось оторваться от настойчивого И-16. Вообще, в этом бою немцам пришлось туго, поэтому пилотам "Кондора" было не до фиксации побед - ни на один сбитый самолёт они не претендуют.

probably unclaimed?? unconfirmed??

many thanks,

regards

[GuerraCivil]

Looking from my books covering Nationalist side (Legion Condor, Aviación Nacional and Aviazione Legionaria) I could not find any claims of downed "Ratas" on the day of 14.6.1938 but yes on the previous day (13.6.) when two Legion Condor pilots (Ewald of 2.J/88 and Schellman of 1.J/88) were credited with a confirmed air victory on I-16.

One unconfirmed claim on I-16 (Mayer of 1.J/88) can be found also on 13.6 but there were not unconfirmed "Ratas" on 14.6.1938 - as shown here: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...+Condor+losses

Errors of date in combat reports (and in other sources) are common. Combat reports were written afterwards and were not always so precise in all details like the exact date of the happenings. It was not falsifying deliberately facts but usually just some memorising or writing errors (for example a combat report describing an event of 13.6. may well have been written and dated on 14.6).

One or two day difference in combat reports of different sides are thus not surprising. In this case I´m inclined to believe that the reported I-16 loss is related to one of three (!) German claims on 13.6.1938.

Other well known date and detail differences in Nationalist/Republican sources - otherwise agreeing on what actually may have happened:

Hannes Trautloft´s He 51 was shot down by a Dewoitine fighter on 30.8.1936 according to German sources, but the only known Republican claim to match that is the He 51 claimed by Ramón Puparelli Francia (with Dewoitine fighter) on 2.9.1936.

Italian pilots Ernesto Monico and Castellani were shot down on 30.8.1936 by a flight of three Dewoitine fighters according to Italian/Nationalist sources. Only known Republican claim to match that are two Fiat CR 32 claimed by a patrol of one Hawker Fury (La Calle) and two Ni-52´s (Alonso S. & Dugo) on 31.8.1936.

[GMichalski]

hi,

thanks for your response

On 13 i have:

2 losses two pilots bail out with light wounds, crashed and kia in enemy territory Lieutenant Alexander Sirochenko. Prokopenko plane got 42 holes including three in bronespinke. Pilot was injured, but was able to return to the airport and made an emergency landing

regards