Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences

[ArtieBob]

Dear Denes,

I believe these will only be found in the individual manufacturing company records. Some I have are from Junkers Bernberg and I have no idea how complete they are, I also have a few scattered from Fiesler. I don't believe anyone has digitized those.

Much of my recent research has been into source material that is not indexed, for that reason most of it has not been "harvested". I am finding bits and pieces of loss information, but no mother lode and it takes a major investment in time. Last year I completed a group of 150 plus reels filmed by ADI(k). Since I live 500+ miles from the archives, I make a week long trip once or twice a year and It took almost 3 years to go through that much material. I am now into some additional groups and it will take several years to get through them, but I am finding enough small items to keep me interested and hope springs eternal regarding finding the "mother lode"

Best regards,

Artie Bob

[Andrey Dikov]

Gentlemen,

Sorry for breaking into your discussion, just a small question to this thread about loss lists experiences.

Can you explain brackets in such loss records as follows:

22.4.42 4./KG 1 F (Krestzy) Unbekannt Ju 88A-4 Werk-Nr.3690 (V4+ZM) 100%
VornameToteVerlVerm
Ofw. Kempfe, Paul F - - 1
Oblt.Muller, Walter B - - 1(1)
Uffz. Wagner, Herbert Bf - - 1
Fw. Manefeld, Hans Bs - - 1

Questions:

a. A number after each person. Obviously, that's a numer of missed. But what does the "one in brackets" after Oblt. Muller name mean?

b. What does the brackets of "Krestzy" mean? I can only assume it means that the place is not definite, but was supposed.


Thanks in advance,

Andrey

[ju55dk]

The bracket after Oblt. Müller shows that he is an officer! You will se that behind every officer!

Junker

[Jim P.]

And the brackets around Krestzy is usually seen with missing crews. Generally seems to refers to the 'target' of the sortie and the whereabouts of the crew/crash site is unknown - at least at the time the loss was noted.

[David Ransome]

Hi,

After cross checking various other records against the loss lists I can confirm that the place name in brackets apparently indicates a sortie or mission to that place, and not a crash site.

HTH

David

[Boris Ciglic]

"Perhaps I should have asked if you have converted the lists to a data format. If you have not, then your probability of "losing" a particular a/c and date are greatly increased. I have spent many hour decipering some of the really poor quality images for some of the lists, it is really easy to miss things. Note that Jim P and I both came up with some of your missing a/c very quickly. My spread sheet is only for certain types, primarily Ju 88 (with a lot of help from Jim P and others), Jim P has a real data base with everything. It take a lot of effort to do it, but in the end, it really helps."

No I didn't do it for the whole butch. Actually I was looking only for aircraft lost over Yugoslavia or with Croat Legion aircrews and I have it in Excel. I didn't have the microfiche reader at home and had to go to local archive. Theirs didnt work so I had to cut every row of these beautifull microfiche into small long strip and read it through ordinary Microfilm reader! I can only say that it was very very painful experience!!! Transfering it all would take months if not years and anyway, I have limited my WW 2 aviation interests long ago (when I realized that I cannot follow it all).

"Do 17Z, 2575, Hertel, Uffz. Georg, , 8., KG 3, , 5K+GS, , , 06-Apr-41, WIA due to enemy fire., , Yugoslavia, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4, , Belgrad, b, F"

Well, I thought this could be "my" Do 17Z, but Mr. Ulf Balke informed me that this aircraft returned to base and that Georg Hartel went to Wiener Neustadt hospital for treatment.

"I checked none of these losses are with the "schulen" list
sure of the dates ??, maybe we could try with wn..."

Absolutely positive about the dates, but have no wn's. Its not the question about these particular aircraft, these are only examples. I have many more of them from secondary German sources but not included in major lists. There is another very good example:
On 31.12.41. Do 17Z of 15.(Kroat.)/KG 53 crash landed in middle of nowhere on Moscow Front after being hit by flak. Kriegsberichter Gerhard Rauchwetter was in the crew and took several photos of the event, he even published a story about it. Croat pilot gave his story to the journalists back home. After finding a cottage few kilometers away, they went in western direction the following morning and later came upon Wehrmacht. What happened with their aircraft I dont know, but both said that they had a very rough landing and that it filled with snow as the front windshield broke on impact with the ground. So again no chance of less than 10% damage (and keeping in mind the weather in this part of the world in January 1941, I believe it was never recovered as it was abandoned in the part of the front which was overrun by Soviet troops in February).
PS I just hope I wont be embarrased again with somebodys find of this plane in the list

[John Manrho]

There is a loss on 28.12.1941 of 15./KG 53 near Witebsk. 35% Bruch after hit by Flak. Could it be?

[Andrey Dikov]

Thank you very much for clarification, gentlemen!

[RT]

there is also one on 311241

KG53FWjasma bN FDO17Z-2114050



one question on the list the "amendments" are regrouped in head or end of particular days, but also systematicaly hand written near the event they modificate who written them ?? german authorities ???
rt