Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 30th August 2008, 23:51
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 5,778
Nick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura about
Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Several months ago, a couple of people here asked if I would write a guide to using Ultra intelligence (deciphered signals) for Luftwaffe research.

I've finally done it and it's now posted on the Ghostbombers website.

P.S. New pages on the site will be designed for a screen 1024 pixels wide instead of 800.
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 31st August 2008, 05:31
Dan O'Connell Dan O'Connell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Klamath Falls, Oregon, USA
Posts: 544
Dan O'Connell will become famous soon enough
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Well done Nick. I wish I'd have had that info from you available when I was writing "the Production Log"...would have saved me all the headaches of figuring it out for my self :-)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 31st August 2008, 07:00
George Hopp's Avatar
George Hopp George Hopp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ottawa, CA
Posts: 830
George Hopp
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Thanks for this, Nick. As always, a wonderful job.
All the best,
George
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 6th September 2008, 17:46
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA
Posts: 2,982
Larry Hickey
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Hello,

Can anyone who has looked into this in detail tell me whether there is significant material available from this source that relates to the Luftwaffe during the 1940 period? My impression over the years is that ULTRA wasn't a particularly well-developed or useful intelligence source during that period. Can someone who has looked into this in detail give me their opinion about this?

Thanx,
__________________
Larry Hickey
Eagles Over Europe Project Coordinator
http://airwar-worldwar2.com
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 6th September 2008, 18:47
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 5,778
Nick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura about
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Hickey View Post
Hello,

Can anyone who has looked into this in detail tell me whether there is significant material available from this source that relates to the Luftwaffe during the 1940 period? My impression over the years is that ULTRA wasn't a particularly well-developed or useful intelligence source during that period. Can someone who has looked into this in detail give me their opinion about this?

Thanx,
Hi Larry, certainly the presentation of the material wasn't as well developed as it later became and I think it would take more work from a researcher to get something from it. I'm attaching my entire collection (really!) of 1940 Ultra messages to illustrate the point (from file HW5/4).
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 14th September 2008, 22:23
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA
Posts: 2,982
Larry Hickey
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Hello,

Thanks for the posting and your comments Nick. I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has spent some time going through the ULTRA info for the 1940 period. This shows that there is perhaps some meat in there, although it will obviously much more limited than ULTRA was able to provide later.

Regards,
__________________
Larry Hickey
Eagles Over Europe Project Coordinator
http://airwar-worldwar2.com
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 9th October 2008, 23:30
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 5,778
Nick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura about
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

I've just amended the article on my website to include an illustration of an Ultra message header.
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 15th September 2009, 01:13
AndreasB's Avatar
AndreasB AndreasB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: London
Posts: 484
AndreasB is on a distinguished road
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

That's a good guide. From my own work with the files, I think you could (if you felt like it) add something on HW13 (the intel summaries), and I would add that in HW1 sometimes a lot of actual messages have been removed, and only the blue cover sheet is left.

I would also add that anyone who wants to work with HW5 from 1941 onwards should be prepared. The files are simply massive, and take an awful lot of time to go through. I requested a bulk order two weeks ago, and shouldn't have bothered. If you can get through 6-8 folders in one go (photographing, not studying in detail), you are doing well.

To clarify - I received the bulk order (Kew staff is really great in accommodating what borders on unreasonable requests!), but the 30 files were simply too much for me to go through.

All the best

Andreas

Last edited by AndreasB; 15th September 2009 at 23:11. Reason: Clarification
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 16th September 2009, 15:25
Marcel Hogenhuis's Avatar
Marcel Hogenhuis Marcel Hogenhuis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Venlo - the Netherlands
Posts: 790
Marcel Hogenhuis will become famous soon enough
Smile Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Hello Andreas,

In order to prepare a visit/multiple visits to the National Archives, I wonder whether you can be more specific about two questions:

- the (average!) number of pages with decripts for, let us say, a week?
- the number of pages that can be done by using a digital camera?

Since the few examples I have seen from HW 5 stuff does reveal a lot of Werkenummer, so far unknown/not known from German sources, it would enhance that knowledge tremendously, especially also for your 1944 Project.

Hoping to hear from you ! All the best, Marcel Hogenhuis (Venlo Airfield in WW-2)

PS. What I noticed from the Summarische Verlustmeldungen is that they copied the errors of the (detailed) daily loss reports from the Luftflotten into it. In some cases I was able to discover that an alleged I./NJG 1 loss was in fact an aircraft of the I./NJ-Schule 1 or I./JG 1.
__________________
airfield Venlo in WW-2, I./NJG 1, He219-project
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 16th September 2009, 18:08
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 5,778
Nick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura about
Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcel Hogenhuis View Post
Hello Andreas,

In order to prepare a visit/multiple visits to the National Archives, I wonder whether you can be more specific about two questions:

- the (average!) number of pages with decrypts for, let us say, a week?
- the number of pages that can be done by using a digital camera?
In 1944-45 files usually cover two days' messages each (one day each during Summer 1944, however). I've never counted the pages but I think that a two-day file would have maybe 300-350 pages.

Using a camera, I can get through about six or seven two-day files in a full day. You could definitely speed up the photography by using one of the camera stands provided but you still have to read the pages to look for things that are of interest to you - something that becomes faster with practice. You gradually learn the "language" of the decrypts.

Note to Andreas: all the messages in HW1 should also be in HW5, so there is a "back-up copy" if something is missing from HW1.
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NEW BOOK - LUFTWAFFE & THE WAR AT SEA DavidIsby Books and Magazines 27 29th June 2012 01:15
Making available an archive of NVMs and research materials wanted on the Polish Campaign. Larry Hickey Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 12 20th June 2008 18:42
Luftwaffe Personnel spying for Allies? RodM Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 34 23rd August 2006 23:10
Luftwaffe data from ULTRA RodM Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 32 19th March 2006 10:48
Luftwaffe fighter losses in Tunisia Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 47 14th March 2005 05:03


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net