Erich Hartmann: 352 victories or... 80?

[Jens]

The NKWD Argument to proove the kills is a little bit ridicioulus, in my opinion.

NKWD accused Hartmann also for destroying a bred fabrication site, which were at JG-54 sector situated, killing 780 civilians due powerless bullets and for destroying 346 russian airplanes.

So Hartmann really killed so much civilians?

[NickM]

Jens:

I seriously doubt Hartmann destroyed a bread plant or killed any civilians; given an Me 109 is a very short ranged fighter I doubt he could have gone too far behind the lines & I don't think a bread plant would be too close to the front---as I recall from the Hartmann bio, the charges stated that when he fired at Soviet aricraft, not all of the ammo he fired struck an aircraft; the ammo fell to the ground after they 'ran out of ballistic momentum' & killed civilians who just happened to be on the ground where the bullets/shells hit;


NickM

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Originally Posted by marsyao

Laurent,the top Sovie ace's score were 62 kills

Yes, sorry. My memory was faulty (I had 82-83 kills in mind).

I was just wondering why the author gave the number of 80.

The French article is not giving enough data to justify this number. And as I said before the general writing of the article was similar to revisionism. But I have not read the original article (and can't).

AFAIK, what we can do now to compare the claims of a WW2 pilot to real losses is to divide the claims into 3 categories:
1) victim identified
2) target identified but escaped
3) unidentified target, most of the cases falling in this category as most claims were in big battles and overclaiming is common there

First category should count as 1 kill, second as 0, third should be counted as 'shared' (let's say we know German pilots claimed 12 kills and shot down 6 planes really, each kill will give 0,5 points for each kill).

So we will have a probable score number.

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by Graham Boak

Denes suggests a ratio of 2:1 for claims to kills: I believe that Chris Shores, with all his experience, has said the same. I would point out however, that this ratio is not an overall factor. In times of intense fighting this can rise dramatically, and 3:1 is certainly not unreasonable.

I would be interested to know how he arrived at '2:1' as an average for inflated pilot claims.

July 10th, 1940 is usually regarded as the first day of the Battle of Britain. Stephen Bungay, author of The Most Dangerous Enemy, said that German pilots claimed to have shot down 30 RAF day fighters. (Another source, Tony Wood's Web site, lists 21 Spitfires and 6 Hurricanes claimed). But only one British fighter was destroyed in those combats: Hurricane P3671 crashed after a mid-air collision with a German Do 17.

In addition, RAF Bomber Command launched six Blenheims for a low level attack on Amiens airfield. German pilots claimed seven destroyed, but only five were lost. Bungay seems to have implied that all five Blenheims were downed by German flak units, which opened fire before the Bf 109s arrived. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the 107 Squadron history, so I cannot cross-check that.

Originally Posted by Graham Boak

Only 80. Wow, what a poor result. No?

I have nothing against Erich Hartmann, but so far I have not seen anyone offer hard evidence that he destroyed 40 enemy planes, let alone 80.

Hartmann must have been a very shrewd pilot because he managed to survive several years of combat, but 352 kills is undoubtedly a fantasy. I would challenge his pundits to prove otherwise.

[Leon]

One question - were all 352 victories of Hartmann veryfied by Abschusskommission??? Being a commander of unit Hartmann was veryfing all his own kills by himself - at the levell of his unit.... But there was also the higher level. Could someone explain it closer???

[Boandlgramer]

according to the RAF homepage:
on july 10th. not just 1 hurri was lost.
2 hurricanes are lost in combat, and 2 crashed while landing.

six nifty,
you know , how many missions were flown by hartmann ?
if you take robert johnsons missions ( 28 kills in 91 missions ) to compare it with hartmanns.
his claims are also undoubtedly fantasy.


note.
i also believe most claims , not just from hartmann or the luftwaffe ( all airforces) has nothing to do with the reality.
its just a matter of the ratio of overclaims.
1 : 3 or 1: 4 for the VVS and the LW, even worse for the USAAF and the RAF.

[MB]

Originally Posted by Boandlgramer

1 : 3 or 1: 4 for the VVS and the LW, even worse for the USAAF and the RAF.

That's too strict borders IMO. Last our researches in Russia give us the ratio from 1:2 to 1:5...6 for the LW, from 1:1 to 1:2...3 for the IA PVO and the worst is for the VVS KA - from 1:3...4 to 1:10 and even higher in some ocasions... Think the same (last) is for USAAF and RAF fighnets over Europe in 1943-45.

[Boandlgramer]

of course , MB.

the overclaims were sometimes better and sometimes worse .
this is why i believe the overclaims 1:3 / 1:4 is not too far from reality ,for the whole war.

[FalkeEins]

Khazanov gives no indication of how or why he arrives at a victory total of " 70 to 80 "..the article is simply not detailed enough..he presents evidence from Soviet archives for only a handful of dates..see Hans Ring's response on my site..

Khazanov bases the 'factual' content of his piece on the Toliver/Constable book...which automatically discredits him in the eyes of the serious historians....

Khazanov and Ring appear to agree on the total of victories for which there exists evidence of official confirmation on the German side..some 289 recorded up to 27 August 1944..

Most of Khazanov's article is character assassination at best.."Hartmann never enjoyed the reputation among his comtempories accorded Moelders or Galland...he never enjoyed elevated rank in the Bundesluftwaffe..."

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by Boandlgramer

according to the RAF homepage:
on july 10th. not just 1 hurri was lost.
2 hurricanes are lost in combat, and 2 crashed while landing.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

My sources show that ten RAF fighters were 'lost' as a result of combat-- but nine of those planes managed to land safely and were listed as damaged but repairable -- not destroyed. One of them was damaged after it was misidentified and shot up by a Spitfire over Hawkinge.

Two other RAF fighters were lost, but not due to combat. Hurricane P3359 crashed in bad weather during a routine patrol and Spitfire N3051 was damaged while landing on a waterlogged runway.

No Spitfires were destroyed and the one Hurricane destroyed during combat was caused by a collision, which means that none of the 27 or more German pilot claims are legitimate. That may also be the case with the Blenheims downed, but I'll look into it.

Originally Posted by Boandlgramer

its just a matter of the ratio of overclaims. 1 : 3 or 1: 4 for the VVS and the LW, even worse for the USAAF and the RAF.

Prove it.