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  #1  
Old 12th February 2012, 06:47
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Hi Guys

There were twenty-four aces who claimed more than fifty confirmed victories, but were never awarded the Ritterkreuz, and are therefore somewhat overlooked, and some are obscure, can anybody please help with dates of birth/death, some I know, some I know only to have survived the war. Grateful for any assistance....

Karl Fuchs 65 confirmed(one West) ?-10th October 1943.
Helmut Mischke 62+ confirmed ?-survived.
Karlheinz Meltzer 62 confirmed 23rd February 1922-14th August 1943.
Hans Ellendt 62 confirmed ?-survived.
Heinrich Dittlmann 61 confirmed 1921-23rd February 1944.
Gerhard Beutin 60 confirmed ?-25th June 1943.
Helmut Haberda 59 confirmed 3rd February 1922-8th May 1943.
Karl munz 59 confirmed(five West, one viermot) 29th April 1915-3rd December 1992.
Gabriel Tautscher 58 confirmed 1919-12th January 1944.
Adolf Nehrig c.58 confirmed ?-survived.
Manfred Eberwein c.56 confirmed(1 viermot) ?-survived.
Helmut Holtz 56 confirmed 1919-18th April 1944.
Wilhelm Hauswith 56 confirmed ?-5th July 1943.
Horst Forbrig 56 confirmed(1 West) 1921-12th June 1944.
Hans Reiff 55 confirmed ?-2nd December 1944.
Herbert Bareuther c.55 confirmed 29th July 1914-30th April 1945.
Kurt Olsen 54 confirmed ?-survived.
Adalbert Sommer 54 confirmed(3 West, 1 viermot) 3rd December 1914-14th March 1944.
Ernst-Dietrich Grumme 54 confirmed(7 West, 5 viermots) 29th July 1922-14th July 1944.
Karl Friedrich Schumacher 53 confirmed 7th October 1920-31st May 1944.
Walter Jahnke 53 confirmed 1914-survived.
Andreas Sterl 52 confirmed ?-1998.
Heinrich Wefers 51 confirmed 14th April 1919-18th May 1943.
August Dilling 51 confirmed(4 West, 1 viermot) ?-14th June 1944.

I think that Hans Ellendt died in the late 1990's or early 2000's.

Thanks in advance.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S if anybody wants the biographies and complete lists of any of the above please let me know.
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Old 12th February 2012, 08:48
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Hans Ellendt died 25 May 2007.

Matti
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Old 12th February 2012, 09:00
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Hello Johannes

I have the following information for several of these aces. Note that Bareuther was awarded the Ritterkreuz on 2 May 1945 according to Obermaier. Any comments or corrections will be greatly appreciated and I hope this helps.

Herbert Bareuther was born on 29 July 1914 at Asch.
Gerhard Beutin was born on 5 October 1919 at Sassnitz.
Heinrich Dittlmann was born on 9 January 1921 at Waldkirchen.
Horst Forbrig was born on 21 July 1921 at Rotewisch.
Helmut Holtz was born on 26 March 1919 at Genthin.
Ernst-Dietrich Grumme was born on 29 July 1922 at Halle.
Karl Munz was born on 29 April 1915 at Gottwollshausen.
Hans Reiff was born on 10 February 1922 at Geroldsgrün.

Horrido!

Leo
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Old 13th February 2012, 05:28
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Hallo Leo and Matti

Many thanks, excellent work, and much appreciated.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #5  
Old 13th February 2012, 07:01
ANDREAS ANDREAS is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

How about Kurt Ratzlaff, 68 victories, lost in September 1942 over Eastern front?
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  #6  
Old 13th February 2012, 07:09
Nikita Egorov Nikita Egorov is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

As regards to Helmut Holtz this is definitely not April 18, 1944. He was only captured on that day.
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Old 13th February 2012, 15:44
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

KArl Munz was also awarded the RK, see Obermaier, though it does say "RK eingereicht, möglicherweise in den letzen Kriegstagen noch ausgesprochen"
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Old 14th February 2012, 07:11
ANDREAS ANDREAS is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

As far as I know there are four more pilots with 50+ vics without having received the RK. These are Karl-Heinz Cordes of JG 54 with 62 vics, Josef "Sepp" Quarda also of JG54 with 52 vics, Karl Brill of JG54 and later of JG7 with 52 vics as well, and I have also a pilot named Wilhelm Kukken of JG51 and JGr OSt who was KIA on April 2, 1944 and had 51 victories.
Any more info about them?
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Old 14th February 2012, 08:20
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

Hi Guys

Thanks for getting back to me, and your questions.......questioning in my opinion helps us to get it right.

Wilhelm Kuken ?-4th April 1944 had 45 in the East.
Kurt Ratzlaff ?-? had 46 in the East until his capture.
Karl Brill 20th March 1920-19th January 1994 had 33(1West) until end of 1944, so possibly more, but unlikely as many as 50 as he was transfered away from the Eastern front!
Karlheinz Cordes 24th April 1920-survived had 43(2 viermots) until the end of 1944, so possibly, actually probably more!!
Josef Quarda(sorry, Id missing him) 19th February 1923 had 52 in the East until the end of 1944, and possibly/likely more in 1945 until his death on 5th March 1945.

With Helmut Holtz I only have him recorded as missing, please could you forward your details and source.

If you can expalin to me how to get my list of 2550 aces and a total of 7805 claimers onto 12oclockhigh I'd do it so everybody could scrutise and question it, it would also be a good help reference I'm sure.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S Is there any interest in me doing a 40-49 non Ritterkreuz list do you think?
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Old 14th February 2012, 08:36
ANDREAS ANDREAS is offline
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Re: Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces

I would like to see a 40-49 non RK list.
As you said questioning is helping us getting it right.
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