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Old 5th December 2014, 16:29
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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True air combat records of Spanish Civil War?

Spanish Civil War in many ways a interesting chapter of airwar. Various types of planes were put in combat and tested - the war represented the last classical dogfights between biplanes and introduced new fast monoplanes and bomber types. New tactics like "finger four" were developed. Also bombing technics like carpet and dive bombing were developed.

But how exact information we actually have? It would be interesting to know the real results of air combats of Spanish Civil War because on some total claims on certain type we know that they are "impossible".

For example I have checked some of the claims of Legion Condor (LC) + Italian Aviazione Legionaria (AL) made on I-16´s. The usual pattern of combat report of Legion Condor + Italian Aviazione Legionaria is that they fought almost always again numerical superiority but claimed often something like 4:1 to their advantage. It seems that enemy had almost unlimited supply of planes and pilots up to late 1938! Taking in account only the claims of Bf 109 pilots + Italian claims we end up with figure of 324 downed "Ratas", which is simply impossible because from Soviet/Republican sources we find out that Soviet delivered a total of 276 I-16 to Spain during the Civil War. (Maslov and others)

The Republican overclaiming seems to be even more grossly exaggerated. Only in the book Spanish Republican Aces (Permuy Lopez) we can find more than 70 claims of downed enemy Bf 109´s. However the LC losses of Bf 109 due to all causes were 40 (Laureau 2000), and of these less than 20 were combat losses. Accidents destroyed more Messerschmitts than enemy.

The Italian claims of 903 destroyed Republican planes have been considered exaggerated by various historians. One Italian historian has suggested 500 to be the correct figure, but even that may be too much. At the same their own losses were quite minimal compared to claims - only 78 losses in air combat during the whole Civil War (based on Pedriali 1992).

Also the numbers of combat strength of combatant air forces differ greatly depending on source. Forsyth (Aces of the Legion Condor) claims that by 1938 there were air armadas of more than thousand planes availabe by both sides. Forsyth also claims that Republicans had numerical superiority still in 1938 while some other sources indicate that this was not true. However Spanish historian Alcofar Nassaes ends up with much smaller quantities of combat aircrafts at both sides.

Has the scale of airwar and air combats been exaggerated in many sources which reflect somewhat propagandistic views of wartime? eeading some of the literature I have the feeling that it is still difficult to have really neutral and balanced views. Although first hand accounts are interesting, I have found that too often such "first-hand" accounts like German 1939 propaganda book Das Buch der Spanienflieger is cited without criticism or trying to analyze seriously the claims made by Legion Condor pilots.

The same goes regarding Republican pilots - we find exaggerations and controversial claims like that some captured Republican pilot were chopped in pieces, boxed and returned in that condition by airdrop to Republican air units! But letting that aside, I went through the Bf 109 claims of 18 Republican aces and of all of their numerous Bf 109 "kills" only one and half-share victory appears to be verified by Legion Condor records.

The true scale and true number of planes destroyed in air combats are very likely much lower than those claimed in past and cited without criticism in some sources.

When it comes to overclaiming, it is a general problem and its reasons are well known and discussed elsewhere, so I will not go here to it. The right methods and difficulties of analyzing available sources are quite the same as those of any history research trying to reach correct statistic info and details.

Thus my suggestion to go this problem, would be limiting the analysis in some subject like the air victory records of certain units of both sides and comparing them to available info of enemy loss records. Of course it is not as simple as that, but is a start. Another perhaps better possiblity would be to limit the search on some limited campaign like Brunete offensive during certain days.

My own data on this is only limited literature sources not containing information in perfect condition. It would be interesting to know if this subject has been touched in some articles or books.

Other threads related to this topic:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...+Condor+losses - a complete list of confirmed and unconfirmed LC claims
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...+Condor+claims - rather controversial revision of LC history
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...nnes+Trautloft - a case study of Hannes Trautloft´s (LC) claims
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=38753 - a case study of José Maria Bravo´s (Rep.) claims

An example of controversial discussion. Republican ace José Falco and his two claims:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=37980

Other interesting stuff. Probably the best website on Republican Air Force: http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerzas/FARE/Fare.htm

And of course it may be good to check regularly the possible updates of Håkan´s Aviation page: http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/scw.htm




Last edited by GuerraCivil; 5th December 2014 at 22:02.
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Old 12th December 2014, 23:12
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: True air combat records of Spanish Civil War?

Case study: the combat losses of Aviazione Legionaria

Here is a list of the plane losses and combat casualties of Aviación Legionaria during the 1936-1937. This is kind a part I of the project to make a informative combat loss records of Aviación Legionaria during the SCW and to compare them with available enemy claim records. The list is not complete as it is based on my limited sources on the books of Forsyth, Permuy Lopez and Alcofar Nassaes. Something I have checked from the web sources (not so informative after all).
The principles of list are the following:
- only combat related losses are listed (accidents and other non-enemy caused losses not included, although one "friendly-fire" case is included)
- when it comes to damaged planes, I mention only cases when there has been a fatal combat casualty (KIA)
- if there is some spesific info about the enemy available, it is included
- the locations of combat losses are "more or less"
- although Aviación Legionaria was a Italian project, time-to-time some Spaniard pilots and units were incorporated in AL. Thus there are few Spaniards included in the combat loss record.
- if there is a "OK" after pilot´s or other aircrew member name, it means that he survived without serious wounds and made it back to own lines (in case of being shot down over enemy territory)

Your comments and additions welcome!

Aviación Legionaria (Aviazione Legionaria) combat losses 1936 - 1937

30.8.1936 Talavera de la Reina: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy Fury (La Calle), Monico POW, killed.
30.8.1936 Talavera: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy Ni-H. 52´s (Santamaría, Peña), Castellani OK
13.9.1936 Talavera: Fiat CR 32 collided with enemy Ni-H. 52 (Colom KIA), Patriarca POW
4.11.1936 Madrid: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy (Soviet piloted) I-15, Magistrini KIA
4.11.1936 Madrid: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy (Soviet piloted) I-15, Dequal OK
5.11.1936 Madrid: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy (Soviet piloted) I-15, Maccacgno WIA, POW
9.11.1936 Madrid: Romeo Ro 37 lost in air combat? crew lost?
1.12.1936 Madrid: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighters, Chianese POW
1.12.1936 Madrid: Romeo Ro 37 shot down by enemy AA, Di Marcio KIA, Matis OK
2.12.1936 Talavera: Savoia S.M. 81 destroyed on the ground (air attack of R-5´s)
10.12.1936/20.12.1936 (?): Romeo Ro 37 shot down by Legion Condor He 51 (“friendly fire”), Jiménez (Spaniard) and Compagny (Spaniard) KIA
22.12.1936 Mahón: Savoia S.M. 81 damaged by flak, Nerieri KIA
13.2.1937 Jarama: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighters, Lodi POW
19.3.1937 Mahón: Savoia S.M. 81 damaged in air combat, Dal Pan KIA
29.4.1937 Aviación de Baleares: Savoia S.M. 81 crashed in sea, five men crew KIA (Anfuso, Escofet, Camallo, Mattarollo, Zannoni), caused by combat damage?
5.6.1937 Santander: Fiat CR 32 shot down by I-15 (Magriña), Presel KIA
6.7.1937 Brunete: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighters, Vercellio KIA
7.7.1937 Ávila: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighters, Mattei OK
7.7.1937 Ávila: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighters, Passeri KIA
8.7.1937 Ávila: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighters, Rubio OK (Spaniard)
12.7.1937 Brunete: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighters, Bermúdez de Castro KIA (Spaniard)
14.8.-20.8.1937 Northern Front: combat losses of 4 aircraft (?) + 1 pilot seriously WIA (one might match with the 17.8.37 claim of Tarazona)
26.8.1937 Zaragoza: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-15 (Gonzáles), Caselli KIA
26.8.1937 Zaragoza: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-15 (Gonzáles), Schievano KIA
27.8.1937 Quinto de Ebro: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-15, Marietti OK
27.8.1937 Quinto de Ebro: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-15, Constantini OK
27.8.1937 Quinto de Ebro: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-15, Capellini POW
24.9.1937 Zuera: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy AA, Monte OK
29.9.1937 Baleares: Savoia S.M. 81 damaged by air combat, Bacchini and Appiani KIA
11.10.1937 Fuentes de Ebro y Mediana: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-16, Boschetto POW
11.10.1937 Fuentes de Ebro y M: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-16, Corsi POW
11.10.1937 Fuentes de Ebro y M: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-16, Leoncini POW
11.10.1937 Fuentes de Ebro y M: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-16, Neri KIA
11.10.1937 Fuentes de Ebro y M: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-16, Rigolli KIA
28.12.1937 Teruel: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-15 (Comas) - one Fiat CR 32 was lost in air combat (in which Comas claimed 2 Fiats), but this plane may have belonged to Spanish unit?

When it comes to 5 Fiat CR 32 losses on 11.10.1937 (Nassaes), it might be that the correct date was 12.10.1937, when Republican pilots Aguirre, Lamas and García (Mosca unit 1/21) claimed each a confirmed Fiat and other pilots of 1/21 Bravo, Arias and Gandía each a probable (Permuy Lopez) - in total Republican pilots made 6 claims, of which 3 were confirmed - quite accurate claims being near the actual enemy losses (5). The combat was clearly a big blow to Italians although they made claims of 15 (!) destroyed enemy fighters in return and this was celebrated in Spanish Nationalist newspapers. When analyzing combat reports one should take in account that there is a repeating pattern to put enemy losses higher than the ones suffered by "own side" - propaganda played a part in official published combat records of both sides turning clear defeat often to a glorious victory!
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Old 15th December 2014, 16:23
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: True air combat records of Spanish Civil War?

A continuation to previous post (above)- the promised "part II":

Aviación Legionaria (Aviazione Legionaria), combat losses 1938 – 1939 + comparison with some Republican info (italics)

17.1.1938 Santa Eulalia: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Boetti KIA - Leopoldo Morquillas Rubio´s (2/26) claim on Fiat CR 32 on 17.1.38?
17.1.1938 Santa Eulalia: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Cesana KIA - besides Rubio, the 2/26 pilots Vela and Zuazo claimed Fiat on 17.1.38.
21.2.1938 Alfambra: Fiat CR 32 destroyed by mid-air-collision with enemy I-15 (Viñals), Haya (Spaniard) KIA - Viñals survived from collision and made it back to homebase.
14.3.1938 near Caspe: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Ajello POW - Escuadra de Caza 11 claimed 6 (!) Fiat CR 32 on 14.3.1938.
17.3.1938 near Alcañiz: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Lucchini OK
20.3.1938 Aragón front: Fiat CR 32 shot down, Bocella KIA
20.3.1938 Aragón front: Fiat CR 32 shot down, Spaddaccini POW
20.3.1938 Aragón front: Fiat CR 32 shot down, Bertocci POW
26.3.1938 Norte del Ebro: Savoia S.M. 81 damaged by flak, Galli KIA
28.3.1938 La Fresneda: Savoia S.M. 79 shot down by flak, crew KIA (pilot Parini)
28.3.1938 La Fresneda: Savoia S.M. 79 shot down by flak, most of crew POW (pilot Maer OK)
28.3.1938: Breda Ba 65 shot down by flak, Copini KIA
2.4.1938 near Segre: Fiat CR 32 shot down by flak, Tessitore KIA
15.4.1938 Pauls: Fiat CR 32 shot down by flak, Lo Moro KIA
23.5.1938 near Bellcaire: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-16, Boschelli KIA - Escuadra de Caza 11 claimed one Fiat on 23.5.38
31.5.1938 Linares de Mora: Fiat CR 32 shot down by flak, Picchini KIA - Escuadra de Caza 11 claimed 10 (!!) Fiats on 31.5.1938
4.6.1938 “Levante front”: Fiat CR 32 shot down by flak, Nicchiarelli KIA
14.6.1938 Sarrión: Savoia S.M. 79 shot down by flak, whole crew KIA (pilot Pezzi)
25.6.1938 Sierra de Espadán: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Sebastiani KIA
16.6.1938: three Fiat CR 32 shot down? (Escuadrilla Autonoma de Ametrallamiento)
18.7.1938 Segorbe/Viver: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Raffi POW
18.7.1938 Segorbe/V.: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Vestrini POW
18.7.1938 Segorbe/V: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Guiducci POW
18.7.1938 Segorbe/V: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Lucchini POW
18.7.1938 Segorbe/V: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Frattini KIA
22.7.1938 “Levante front”: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Oliosi KIA
25.7.1938 Ebro front, Flix: Fiat BR 20 destroyed by enemy flak, Fruttini, Moro and Cerruti KIA, rest of crew OK
23.8.1938 Ebro front: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Bracco KIA
27.8.1938 Teresa: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Borgogne POW
1.11.1938 Mora y Ebro: Fiat CR shot down by enemy fighter, Zanetti KIA - José Falcó (3/26) claimed a Fiat CR 32 on 1.11.1938
24.12.1938 Castelldans: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Accorsi seriously WIA
24.12.1938 Castelldans: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Marini KIA - Gonzáles and Morales of 6/21 claimed together a shared Fiat
28.12.1938 Catalonian front: Fiat CR 32 badly damaged by enemy fighters, Gasparini KIA - Escuadra 11 claimed 3 "confirmed" Fiats
29.12.1938 Montblach: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Zannier KIA
3.1.1939 Catalonian front: Fiat BR 20 damaged by enemy flak, Chiasserni KIA
8.1.1939 Montblach: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy fighter, Falconi POW (?)
25.1.1939 Montseny: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-16, Masi KIA
29.3.1939 Escalona: Fiat CR 32 badly damaged in combat (flak?), Casadei KIA
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Old 15th December 2014, 23:49
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: True air combat records of Spanish Civil War?

A small addition to the "part I" of Aviazione Legionaria (AL) losses (1936-1937):

26.8.1937 near Villamajor: Fiat CR 32 shot down by enemy I-15, Degli Incerti WIA

On the 26.8.1937 AL lost thus in total 3 Fiat CR 32 in air combat - these may correspond with the claims of Chidasvinto Gonzáles García (2 Fiat claims) and Vicente Castillo Monzó (1 Fiat Claim) on that day. Both C. Gonzáles García y Castillo Monzó were pilots of Chato (I-15) Grupo 26, which was operating near the areas where Fiats were shot down on 26.8.1937.
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Old 17th December 2014, 00:50
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Re: True air combat records of Spanish Civil War?

Hi,

very interesting info

i check my info to find diferences....

regards
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Old 21st December 2014, 19:32
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: True air combat records of Spanish Civil War?

One finding more to "part II" of Aviazione Legionaria losses:

25.10.1938 Sabadell: Savoia S.M. 81 shot down by flak, crew KIA (pilot Maccani)
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Old 22nd December 2014, 23:32
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: True air combat records of Spanish Civil War?

Apart from the Aviazione Legionaria´s about 75 - 80 losses chartered above, I have from the Franco´s side the following info I gathered of German and Spanish air contingents:

Legion Condor losses in air combat (the list does not include losses caused by flak or accidents during combat sorties!)

In total 42 air combat losses seems to be verified and can be credited to Republican air units

J/88 - at least 24 aircraft lost in air combat: 11 Bf 109 and 9 He 51 lost, but the figure migh be bigger but some cases are controversial (4 Bf 109) and on some He 51 losses there is no info is the loss was caused by air combat or by enemy flak
K/88 - at least 11 aircraft lost in air combat: 4 Ju 52 and 7 He 111, again the figure might be bigger because there is no always info if the combat loss caused by enemy was due to air combat or flak
VB/88 - at least 2 aircraft lost in air combat: 1 Ju 86 and 1 Do 17
A/88 - at least two aircraft lost in air combat: 2 He 70, but possibly more
AS/88 - the usual reference is that this unit lost in 5 or 6 aircraft due to enemy activity, at least 3 of them because of air combat.

Aviación Nacional / Brigada Hispana (Spanish Nationalist Air Force)

This is the least known of all air forces of Spanish Civil War (at least when it comes to references in English!). About 40-50 air combat losses seem possible, more than half of them Fiat CR 32 fighters. Possibly losses were higher.


Adding these losses to previously chartered Aviazione Legionaria loss score it looks that Franco´s side with all of its three air forces (Italian, German and Spanish) lost roughly estimated about 160 planes in air combats but this is a "at least" estimate, could be more (but less than 200 aircraft). I have not gone through all Republican claim records, but I guess that they claimed much more than 160!

For the Republican air combat losses it is for me difficult to make a similar evaluation because I do not have enough data (comprehensive loss records). The only thing that I know is that Polikarpov fighters were not shot down as many as the Legion Condor/Aviazione Legionaria/Aviación Nacional claimed.

According to Maslow the three Nationalist air forces claimed together some 500 I-15 Chatos which was more than were delivered by Soviets and manufactured in Spain. Also the claims of downed I-16´s seems to have been higher (about 400 - 500) than the total number of delivered Moscas to Spain (276). According to Maslov the air combat losses of Republican Polikarpov fighter units (including both I-15 and I-16) in Spanish Civil War could have been roughly 200 by the early 1939.

It seems that Republican air combat losses were considerably higher than those suffered by Nationalist air forces - total air combat losses of Republican Air Force were some 300 aircraft? However, Republican flak did cause considerably losses to all three Nationalist air forces.

The size of combat aircraft armadas of both sides seems also to have been exaggerated. To my knowledge there were not combat aircraft armadas of more than 1000 planes clashing against each others as claimed in some books.

More likely the combatant air forces at both sides were much smaller ones (according to A. Nassaes about 300 - 400 planes at same time in operational condition could have been the maximum combat strength at both sides). Probably the sizes of air armadas at enemy side were exaggerated by combat records and also to make it possible to match the own claims with enemy´s supposed combat strength.

If someone is more informed about the airwar of SCW - please share the info here!

Last edited by GuerraCivil; 23rd December 2014 at 15:42.
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Old 24th December 2014, 21:09
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Thumbs up Re: True air combat records of Spanish Civil War?

Hi,

you know total losses in specific campaigns or months?

i see some info of this in Alas Rojas sobre España, Miguel Sanchís...

Alas Rojas sobre España Miguel Sanchís, page 26:

Campaña de Brunete (6-28 july): 105 losses

......................

also i put next days a doubt about a claim of Morato 18 august 36, because in this book seems to have a photo of the wreck.......

kind regards
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Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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Old 25th December 2014, 22:50
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: True air combat records of Spanish Civil War?

I have been gathering some information about Northern Front 1936-1937. What is known for sure is that 1937 Republicans lost almost all their aircraft allocated in North. This meant 43 I-15 and sixteen I-16 and many other planes - only 2 Chatos and 1 Mosca managed to escape to France on 20.10.1937 before the fall of Gijón.

Republican losses were more than 59 (!) Polikarpov fighters - there was at Northern Front eight Letov 231s, probably nine Breguet XIX, four Koolhoven planes, one DC-2, couple of Ni-H. 52 and probably some 15 planes of different old French/British types. How many of these Republican planes were destroyed in air combat is a open question (although some Italian and German claims can be verified). For example of eight Letov 231´s only one was shot down in air combat. Many planes were destroyed on the ground by the enemy or set on fire by retreating Republicans. The AA resources to protect airfields were limited to few machineguns and thus Republican airfields were quite easy targets for Nationalist air attacks. Also many airfields were very primitive with difficult takeoff and landing conditions which caused crash-landings and damages.

Also Nationalists suffered some losses at the Northern Front, although I know only the German and Italian records. When it comes to Italians, Aviazione Legionaria lost to my knowledge 5 aircraft in combat during the Northern campaigns. This includes the shot down of Italian ace Guido Presel (Fiat CR 32) by Chato pilot Rafael Magriña on 5.6.1937 + four other losses occurred in August 1937. I do not know of more Italian combat losses at Northern front. Unfortunately the losses and claims of Spanish Nationalist air units are unknown to me.

Of the Legion Condor losses I have more info. To my knowlegde Republican fighter units and their flak destroyed as many as 18 Legion Condor planes at the Northern Front, of which probably 9 in air combat and 9 shot down by flak. More precisely these in chronological order:

8.12.1936 Northern Front: He 51 (J/88) shot down by I-15 (likely Soviet pilot)
4.1.1937 Torrijos: Ju 52 (K/88) shot down by I-15 (del Río)
1.4.1937 Vizcaya: He 51 (J/88) shot down by flak
18.4.1937 Bilbao: Do 17 (VB/88) shot down by I-15 (del Río)
13.5.1937 Vizcaya: 2 x He 51 (J/88) shot down by flak
15.6.1937 Miravalles: He 70 (A/88) shot down in air combat or by flak
14.8.1937 Santander: He 111 (K/88) shot down air combat or by flak
23.8.1937 Santander: He 70 (A/88) shot down in air combat or by flak
25.8.1937 Santander: 2 x He 111 (K/88) shot down by enemy I-16´s
2.9.1937: He 111 (K/88) over Gijón shot down by enemy fighter (I-15)
4.9.1937 Lanes: He 70 (A/88) and Do 17 (VB/88) shot down by flak
11.9.1937 North: He 45 (A/88) damaged badly by flak and written off
22.9.1937 Santander: He 45 (A/88) shot down by flak
24.9.1937 Gijón: Ju 52 (K/88) shot down by enemy fighters
7.10.1937 Gijón: Ju 52 (K/88) over Gijón shot down by flak

Of the loss of 11.9.1937 it is interesting to note that He 45 of A/88 was piloted by Gefreiter Stanislau Leske who died when crash-landing his badly damaged plane. Some sources refer Leske having being a pilot of J/88 and crash-landed a Heinkel 51 on that day!

Last edited by GuerraCivil; 26th December 2014 at 21:40.
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Old 25th December 2014, 23:27
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Re: True air combat records of Spanish Civil War?

hi,

i send you what i have:

18.4.37 Felipe del Río Crespo* Do-17 Nationalist German Bilbao Shot down 1 DO-17-E2-851L 27-2 "Pedro 2"VB/88 Hans Sobotka KIA, Otto Hofmeister & Frederich Muller killed after trying to escape by parachute at a too low altitude and fall in Nervión river. Prob by Crespo near Gualdácano. Wreck found in Zaratamo over 3 Km of Gualdácano.
18.4.37 Andrés Rodríguez Panadero & ¿? I-15, same aircraft that claimed Crespo? Do-17 Nationalist German shared 1/2 + 1/2 Bilbao Shot down 1 DO-17-E2-851L 27-2 VB/88 Hans Sobotka KIA, Otto Hofmeister & Frederich Muller killed after trying to escape by parachute at a too low altitude and fall in Nervión river. Prob by Crespo near Gualdácano. Wreck found in Zaratamo over 3 Km of Gualdácano.

about claims maybe hakans help you more!!

regards
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"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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