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  #1  
Old 7th October 2017, 10:38
Urusut Urusut is offline
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Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356

Hello,

Can anyone provide details of the loss of the Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356 on the 08.10.1942?

Thanks
Oleg
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  #2  
Old 7th October 2017, 17:17
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John Vasco John Vasco is offline
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Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356

5./ZG 1
Lt. Werner Damm (FF)
Uffz. August Krieger (Bf)
Bf 110 E-2
S9+TN
4356
Hit by Flak. Did not return from combat mission.
20 Kms. south of Gorjatsch-Kljutsch.
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Old 7th October 2017, 17:36
Urusut Urusut is offline
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Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356

Thank John!

Kind regards,
Oleg
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  #4  
Old 7th October 2017, 19:37
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Evgeny Velichko Evgeny Velichko is offline
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Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356

Oleg - this aircraft was found some time ago.
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Old 8th October 2017, 11:11
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356

John

I have this one listed as a D-3 model (most likely from the Mankau/Petrick book). Since I feel it was a bit unlikely D models were rebuilt into E ones, can you possibly give me a clue how to interpret all this?

Since I assume you have the WNr details that both Mankau/Petrick used, are these numbers open for questioning?

Cheers
Stig
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Old 8th October 2017, 12:22
Rottler Rottler is offline
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Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356

Hello Stig,

Mankau/Petrick say Werk-Nr. 4213-4380 = 168 Bf 110 D-3 built by Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau GmbH in Bremen.

In the Gen.Qu. loss report from 19 October 1942 is listed Bf 110 F (S9+TN) 4359. In the supplement (Ergänzung) from 29 October 1942 h) is noted:
Ändere Werk-Nr. 4359 in 4356 (Bf 110 F).

Regards
Leo
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Old 8th October 2017, 13:28
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356

Thanks Leo

Now you have made me even more confused...
Three different 110 versions?

What was it in real life??

Cheers
Stig
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Old 8th October 2017, 15:03
Rottler Rottler is offline
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Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356

Hello Stig,

let us wait for an answer to your post #5.

Regards
Leo
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  #9  
Old 8th October 2017, 20:16
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John Vasco John Vasco is offline
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Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356

The information in my earlier post is the entry I gave in my book, Sting of the Luftwaffe.

That information was drawn from two sources: the Nam Ver & the Gen.Qu.

In Petrick/Mankau, 4356 is in the block 4213 to 4380 which was allocated to the 'D-3' series, and were built between September 1940 and March 1941 by FW.

4381 to 4400 (E series) were also built by FW in April 1941.

The D-3 batch mentioned above was the last D-3 batch to be built. The 'E' series was already on the production lines in August 1940, and so D-3 production would have been running parallel with 'E' series production in the FW factory.

So, where do the last 3 paragraphs take us? They take us to a scenario not uncommon for the Bf 110 - that of a cross-over during production resulting in the finished aircraft not having the original designation given by the RLM. The following is an example of what happened during the 'C' series production.
W. Nr. Sub-variant during production Sub-variant from loss list Remarks
2065 C-2 C-4 3M+EK air collision during combat 3/9/40
2095 C-2 C-4 2N+GM damaged in combat 2/9/40
2104 C-2 C-4 2N+KP shot down 4/9/40
2116 C-2 C-4 3M+AA shot down 4/9/40
2123 C-2 C-4 3M+CH shot down 25/8/40
2130 C-2 C-4 3U+JR damaged in combat 25/9/40
2133 C-2 C-4 3M+HL air collision during combat 3/9/40
2137 C-2 C-4 2N+FM shot down 9/9/40
2145 C-2 C-4 3U+CA abandoned over Channel 6/9/40
2146 C-2 C-4 3M+BK shot down 3/9/40 (duplicate W. Nr)
2146 C-2 C-4 U8+CL shot down 6/9/40 (duplicate W. Nr.)
3004 C-2 C-4 2./NJG 1 damaged in combat 16/11/40
3028 C-2 C-4 U8+HH shot down 26/9/40
3045 C-2 C-4 3U+BN damaged in combat 2/9/40
3094 C-2 C-4 3U+AR shot down 26/9/40
3098 C-2 C-4 III./ZG 26 damaged in combat 27/9/40
3101 C-2 C-4 2N+CN shot down 4/9/40
3102 C-2 C-4 U8+BB shot down 18/8/40
3113 C-2 C-4 3M+EL shot down 3/9/40
3117 C-2 C-4 3M+FL shot down 7/9/40
3120 C-2 C-4 3M+CB shot down 3/9/40
3123 C-2 C-4 3M+LL shot down 11/8/40
3208 C-2 C-4 3M+KH shot down 25/8/40
3231 C-2 C-4 3U+LT shot down 11/9/40
3532 C-2 C-4 8./ZG 76 shot down 25/8/40
3534 C-2 C-4 2N+DN shot down 24/9/40
3536 C-2 C-4 3U+GN shot down 2/9/40
3545 C-2 C-4 2N+AC shot down 4/9/40
3551 C-2 C-4 2N+EP shot down 11/7/40
3563 C-2 C-4 2N+HM shot down 4/9/40

So, for the above table, the headings speak for themselves. But what happened? The 'C-2' was equipped with the MG-FF 20 mm cannon; the 'C-4' was equipped with the MG-FF/M improved 20 mm. cannon. So what we see from the above table is that during the production run, the improved MG-FF/M became available for the airframes under construction, thereby upgrading them to 'C-4' specification. The final paperwork leaving the factory with the individual aircraft would should the up-to-date information concerning the aircraft (C-4). So, an initial allocation within the 'C-2' W. Nr. batch allocation became a 'C-4' upon final issue out of the factory. The above table is not comprehensive - it is simply what I discovered, and published in the book I did with Fernando Estanislau on the Bf 110 C, D & E. There are probably other examples.

What has this got to do with the present matter under discussion?

As stated earlier, the 'D-3' and 'E' would have been in parallel production at the FW factory with allocated W. Nr. batches, which we see as 4213 to 4380 for the D-3, and 4381 to 4400 for the E. As 4356 was towards the end of the last D-3 batch to be produced, it is possible that it was ultimately built as an 'E-2', and issued from the factory as such. The difference being the fitment of the cabin heating equipment in the 'E' series, evidenced by the air inlet between the central MGs on the nose cowling, and the inlet on the starboard fuselage aft of the cockpit, as well as tyres of different dimensions and a strengthened undercarriage. Given that that specification was available from August 1940, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that it was fitted to some in the 'D-3' last batch. If that was the case, and I'm saying here it is only a possibility, then when S9+TN was lost in action, the paperwork at unit level would show the loss of an 'E-2' variant, not a 'D'. That, I submit, is the likely scenario.

There are other examples of parts cross-over. Photos exist of Bf 110 Cs with the earlier 'B' series canopy, and 'C' aircraft with the 'B' rounded wingtips.

Please forgive this long post, but I felt it necessary to look at matters in more depth, particularly with regard to the factory and the field, having previously identified the differences as outlined above.

As for the matter of an 'F' series, there is nothing in Petrick/Mankau that shows the W. Nr. batch 43XX as being allocated to that variant.


Edit: Re the list of C-2/C-4 aircraft. I set everything up manually OK, but on posting, it was jumbled up! I hope you can read across OK.
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Last edited by John Vasco; 9th October 2017 at 01:03.
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  #10  
Old 9th October 2017, 08:31
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Bf 110 Werk-Nr. 4356

Thanks John

Very interesting scenario. I don't think I realized that the difference in real life was in fact so small between the two versions. That a C-2 could be upgraded to a C-4 seems very likely while making a D into an E would be a lot more difficult.
Wonder why they in fact changed the sub-version title in this case and not just continued with a D-x?

Anyway your explanation is very much plausible and I have made an explicit note about it in relevant places.

May I ask if this is the first D-3 WNr that this change can be noticed or are there any lower (or indeed higher) WNrs where this also can be seen?

Thanks again John for taking the time to enlighten all of us
Very much appreciated!!

Cheers
Stig
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