GCI/2 losses on 11.05.40

[robert]

Hi,


on 11.05.40 GCI/2 lost in air combat Cne Hyvernaud with MS-406 No.1012. Also damaged were probably 2 others planes: No. 379 and 615. I wonder if somebody had more details of this combat(-s?)?

Regards


Robert

[Peter Cornwell]

Hi Robert,

I don't know what source you are quoting but I have this largely based on Paul Martin's work:

GC I/2 Morane 406 (946). Shot down Oberfw Grimmling of 1./JG53 during attack on enemy bombers near Longwy; crashed between Blénod-les-Toul and Ochey 6.45 a.m. Capt. P. Hyvernaud tried to bale out but killed. Aircraft a write-off.

Nothing on the two damaged machines you mention.

[robert]

Hi Peter,


thanks a lot for your information. My source is Batailles Aeriennes No. 18.


REgards

Robert

[Stephane Muret]

Hello Robert,

According to MS406 ( ed. Avions 1998)
#379 (coded N-797) : GC 1/2 (EM) Lost due to air combat on april 7 1940 (Cpt Vidal KIA)
#615 (coded L-554) : GC 1/2 2eme escadrille, damaged 11 may 1940 (pilot Sgt Chef Givelet),Atelier Réparation Armée de l'Air on may 12 1940.

According to "Invisibles Vainqueurs", Paul Martin (1991), MS406 #379 (Cpt Vidal) crashed NE from Marmoutiers (Saverne) at 15 h 10 PM after meeting Me109
Alaso see "L'escadrille des Cigognes" Cpt William Arthaud 1945.

Hope this could helps.
S. Muret

[robert]

Hi Stephane,


Cne Vidal was victim of Olt.R.Seiler from 1/JG54 but I have MS-406 No.679
The 1/JG53 claimed 3 MS-406 shot down in the morning air combat on 11.05.40. So it is not quite sure who shot Cne.Hyvernaud and who damaged the other Morane.
Stephane I have one question more: the GCI/8 lost some MB152 in combat on 11.05.40. Do you know the time of this losses?(No.537, No.534, ??).

Regards

Robrt

[Stephane Muret]

Robert,

According to the same sources, #679 (GC 1/2, 1ere escadrille) wasn't downed during battle of France. Sure there is an error with codes somewhere but who made the first ?

For GC 1/8 i've found :
may 11 1940 Bloch met Me109 and 110 covered He111 :
Bloch 152 # 369 crashed at St Germain sur Meuse (pilot Lt Flandi KIA)
# 534 crashed at ? (Pilot Adjudant Guy safe)
# 537 crashed at ? (Pilot Cpl/c Spatchek bailed out and was safe)
Badly, no time to give.

I'm going to look for more infos but my knowledge about Bloch 152 is poor.

Good afternoon.
Stéphane

[robert]

OK Stephane,


Thanks a lot!

Perhaps someone could give us the time of this combat?

Robert

[Pieter H]

All,

As usual the type identification (in this case by the germans) is the least reliable part of the claims during these early days of May.

So regarding these two incidents I tend to propose the following matches on May 11:

At 06.15 South of Metz at 7000 m altitude a Patrouille Haute of Bloch 152s of GC I/8 encountered Bf109's of I/JG53, that were escorting He-111 bombers of I/KG53, probably on a raid to the Metz/Toul area.
In this encounter the germans claimed three "Moranes" (which should thus be Blochs), which are the 3 Blochs No 379, 534 and 537 as mentioned by Robert. (At the same time one of the Heinkels was shot down by two Moranes of GC III/7).

At 10.15 over Toul a second encounter took place between I./JG54 and Moranes of GC I/2 (based at Toul!), in which Lt Friedrich Rumpf claimed a "Hawk". This was then almost certainly the Morane of Cne Hyvernaud.

What was now the real number of the is Morane; 1012 or 946?

Pieter

[Stig Jarlevik]

All

I am pretty certain that Pieter is correct

The lost/damaged Morane on 11.5.40 is 379 and NOT 679. Cne Vidal was lost in No 679 on 7.4.40
In which Morane Cne Hyvernaud was lost on 11.5.40 is still not settled.
In Bataille Aerienne 17(!) the same author has put a question mark after No 1012, which means he is uncertain. The Morane book quote No 946 as the one he was lost in (as does Mr Martin) while Bataille Aerienne 18 states No 946 was damaged by bombs on the 12th!
The problem I believe originates in that Cne Hyvernaud flow BOTH machines.
Bottom line is I have NO idea which one is which...
Cheers
Stig

[Fairlop]

Hi,

Cpl.Chef Otto Spacek of GC I/8 was shot down in No.537 near by Janville.
He is still alive.

Regards,
Michal