LW losses 18 June 1944 Montpellier-Nimes

[keith A]

On this date a formation of P-47s from GCII/5 attacked and claimed to have shot down an He111. They then encountered six Bf109 and during an aerial engagement two of the Bf109 were seen to be damaged at least, one losing part of it's tail, the other spinning down until lost to sight. Among the claimants was Lt Pierre L'Espinay who would later be given credit for two more Bf109s, and cne Jacques Tardy de Montravel. The Journal de Marche of GCII/5 credits this patrol with three victories, although the Bf109s are largely unreported .

Were there any LW losses on this date, in this area?

best regards

Keith

[Nick Beale]

http://www.ghostbombers.com/JG200/june_1.html

Other He 111s lost in Southern France that summer were transport/liaison machines retained by KG 26 but I don't know about this particular one. II./KG 26 did report a single aircraft missing in action and III./KG 26 was missing two that day but these were probably Ju 88s taking part in the torpedo attack off Normandy

I didn't find any evidence of a Bf 109 being claimed (and regrettably the material losses file covering JGr. 200 has not yet been digitised by the bundesarchiv). From UK National Archives AIR 23/6510

Int/Opsum No. 434

1900 hrs 17 – 1900 hrs 18 June 1944
Fighter Bombers … 20 P-47s 4 French Group destroyed 3 locos, damaged 3 locos in the Narbonne area and encountered and destroyed 1 He 111 10 miles West of Nîmes.
Claims:. Aircraft – 87th Fighter Wing – 1 He 111 destroyed.
Enemy Activity, Air: 1 He 111 shot down by p-47s of 4th French Group – 10 miles W. Nîmes.

[keith A]

Cheers Nick. I expect De L'Espinay and Montravel claimed the Bf109 as probables or damaged. The ORB of GCII/5 states they were victories but it is rare to see Montravel's claim described other than by Gisclon and L'Espinay's even rarer. KG26 does appear in a couple of the victories claimed by P-39 earlier in 1943-1944. I saw JG53 lost two Bf109 on ferry flights, cause unknown but both fell in Northern France at Meaux and Villacoublay. JGr.200 sounds interesting. Weren't they implicated in the loss of Saint Exupery?

best regards

Keith

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by keith A

JGr.200 sounds interesting.

They were, enough so that I spent about 20 years researching them, on and off. The results are here: http://www.ghostbombers.com/JG200/200intro.html

Originally Posted by keith A

Weren't they implicated in the loss of Saint Exupery?

Keith

Almost certainly not: http://www.ghostbombers.com/JG200/Ri...int-ex_01.html

[keith A]

Mea culpa, Nick I have dipped into your research many times in the past, this was laziness on my part, and some problems with the TOCH site dropping out unexpectedly.

Two days later JGr. 200 sent up 12 aircraft to counter an allied incursion into the Montpellier area. The interlopers were probably the 20 P-47s of the Free French Gr. C. 2/5 “Lafayette” which claimed three locomotives and an He 111 but were not intercepted by the German fighters.

GCII/5 state in the Journal de Marche of the 4th Escadre that they encountered six Bf109 on that date, if not JGr.200 then who?

I will spend the morning catching up on reading "Ghostbombers"

best regards

Keith

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by keith A

GCII/5 state in the Journal de Marche of the 4th Escadre that they encountered six Bf109 on that date, if not JGr. 200 then who?
Keith

There was no other Bf 109 fighter unit in southern France then and any Bf 109s of the former Jagdgruppe Süd not embodied into JGr. 200 should already have been pulled out although you can never rule out the odd straggler, of course.

There's no mention of any encounter with Bf 109s in the source I quoted in my first post which was the Mediterranean Allied Tactical Air Forces Daily Intelligence/Operations summary (TNA AIR 23/6510). Nor is HW 41/87, "MAAF Signal Int. Service, Enemy Air Activity, June 1944–Feb. 1945" any help and there is no ULTRA decrypt relating to JGr. 200 operations that day.

Jochen Prien conformed to me from the Luftwaffe Führungsstab daily sitrep that the 12 Bf 109s scrambled on the 18th did not contact the enemy.

So somebody's wrong, apparently but who?

[keith A]

It is a puzzle. Why would the French invent encountering Bf109s? It makes no sense, even if we discount the claims (and it seems that the French did award at least "probable" victories). The reports by Montravel and L'Espinay are very descriptive about the damage they inflicted on the Bf109s, one of which lost part of it's tail, the other was trailing black smoke. The French pilots only saw six Bf109 but perhaps there were others? Montravel claims he attacked four.

Could it be a "blue on blue" incident? A Spitfire or a Mustang flight? I am sure you've considered this too. The dogfight was lengthy and the French pilots had to drop their wing tanks when entering the combat.

I should mention that I have been researching the French fighter squadrons claims from 1939 and it's rare to see evidence of overclaiming where no LW were at least damaged. Montravel was a veteran flyer and deputy commander of GC2/5 and had claimed victories in the Battle of France, L'Espinay had several months of combat against the Luftwaffe in Tunisia in 1943 and led the "Sioux" Escadrille (SPA124).

Something is missing. I am sure the French flight attacked what they saw as a formation of enemy fighters and someone got hurt. I just have to live long enough to see it proved

best regards

Keith

p.s. I read your very detailed account of the Saint-Exupery case. Great stuff!

[Nick Beale]

There is a list of French claims in the late Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt's « À la Reconquête de la France (01.43–08.44) » in Aéro Journal No. 23 (February–March 2002). This gives the claimants for the He 111 on 18 June (Gouachon, Ducru, Gauthier and Bernard) but says nothing about any Bf 109s. Obviously, I don't know what sources he was using.

There are no corresponding Bf 109 losses for 18 June in Jean-Bernard Frappé « La Luftwaffe Face au Débarquement Allié » either.

[keith A]

I agree, Nick but I believe he was addressing confirmed victories. I think Montravel and L'Espinay claimed or were awarded "probables" which in some sources are lumped in with confirmed victories. "Les pilotes de chasse francais 39-45" by CJE, Listemann and Tilly agrees in that they are not included (again no sources are listed). However Gisclon credits himself with five victories in his books, despite the fact that two of the five were probables. He also lists L'Espinay as having three victories and Montravel one (with GC2/5). Gouachon had five crosses marked on his P-47 Thunderbolt despite one being a "probable".

Perhaps the Bf109s landed safely but damaged. Again we are at an impasse. Regardless of the results. The LW sources deny a combat, or indeed any encounter, the French are equally sure there was one. Why would the French pilots make it up? Neither pilot seems to have been a "gong-hunter", and I assume there were several pilots present to corroborate the action. There are many instances of overclaiming in the theatre, John Voll of 31st FG USAAF was awarded a medal and credited with several victories despite being alone and with no gun camera footage (and LW records have not provided evidence of his extravagant claims) but no evidence of French pilots making such claims. Are we to believe these French pilots returned home and concocted this story for their own advancement? It seems unlikely.

The LW records may be all but complete but they don't give any firm details of the He111 shot down on that date either. You surmise that the losses to KG26 were Ju88 and occurred far to the north and I trust your judgement on that case because it is based on incomplete records but has a rational solution.

I am going to side with the French version of events, despite the LW statements, simply because I cannot see a rationale for Montravel and L'Espinay to invent a story.

best regards

Keith

[Nick Beale]

Are we to believe these French pilots returned home and concocted this story for their own advancement? It seems unlikely.

Are we absolutely sure that that two events in different locations and/or on diffrerent days have not become conflated? Do we have the times and map references for the two actions? From AIR 23/6510 I do have a map ref. for the He 111.

The LW records may be all but complete but they don't give any firm details of the He111 shot down on that date either. You surmise that the losses to KG26 were Ju88 and occurred far to the north and I trust your judgement on that case because it is based on incomplete records but has a rational solution.

KG 26 was definitely involved in the action off the Normandy beach head that night (identified by ULTRA and the Y-Service).

There is a Bundesarchiv file that should say if JGr. 200 had any loss or damage that day (RL 2-III/854) but it hasn't been digitised yet, sadly.

Losses from schools and miscellaneous units are in RL 2-III/779 (which is digitised if you want to search through it for any losses in the right general area).