German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

The micro films list twelve Luftwaffe claims in the east for 13th November 1944, eleven of which were for JG52, though I believe that these daily claims are not 100% over this period, in fact JG5's are missing from October 1944.

The easiest day to pin Hartmann down would in my opinion be the following day, the Luftwaffe daily sheet lists only five claims, all JG 52. One earlier on at 0842 hrs a Jak-9 for Heinz Männel, and then two Lavochkin-5's for Hartmann at 1135 hrs and 1145 hrs, unfortunately the other two are at around the same time two Jak-9's at 1145 hrs and 1200 hrs from Gerhard Barkhorn.

What does your research reveal regarding this date?

Kind Regards

Johannes

[HGabor]

Nikita,

You are probably right with the dogfight between 149. GvIAP pilot Stepanov and Hptm. Lipfert.

But: neither Stepanov, nor his plane was a permanent loss. That's why I had only Kotlyar as 149. GvIAP (permanent) loss for November 13, 1944. Stepanov's Yak-1 got hit in the dogfight and landed on one wheel at Abony-N, at about 20 km. He returned to his regiment still on the 13th. The next day, on November 14, 1944 his plane was sent to 76. ОТЭР and got repaired. His plane serial is not clear: it was probably 42178 (so the 42nd plane of 178th Yak-1 batch, not 42188 of the 188th batch) with engine: 132-41, - as multiple errors in AC lists for 5 VA, 13 GvIAD. Keep checking.

Cheers,

Gabor

[HGabor]

Johannes,

Found only one permanent 5 VA La-5 loss for November 14, 1944:

La-5FN, S/N: 39213519, engine: 82131600 from 5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP was lost due to dogfight with 2 'Fw 190's and AAA fire. Pilot: ml.l-t Sergei Alekseevich Matveev injured.

At 13:20 (Moscow time, - 11:20 local) at the altitude of 800 m, 2+4 La-5s, covering 6 IL-2s in the area of Tarnaörs (?) met 2 'Fw 190's. Matveev's La-5 got hit in the engine and a piece hit his head. He lost consciousness and started to fall, but he managed to recover at the altitude of about 50-100 m. (An exceptionally lucky guy....!) Crashlanded on soviet held territory. Pilot was saved, but his plane was not subject to repair.

Again: not a lucky number for Hartmann.... Max. 50% But let's be nice: this victory really could be Hartmann's because of same time and altitude (800 m). Even area is about the same. Probably the soviets missed the AC type, which had happened a lot in bad weather. (November, 1944)

[HGabor]

On November 14, 1944 5 VA lost a few other planes.

122 IAP lost a Yak-1b, tactical no. white '12' in the region of Kóka-Zsámbok-Tarnaörs. Pilot was ml.l-t Ivan Tihonovich Blagoder who failed to return. Flight of 4 Yaks covering IL-2s, leader: ml.l-t Babanin.

179 IAP lost Bocharov's Yak-1 in a dogfight with Bf 109s at 8:40 local in the Zsámbok area, while covering IL-2s. Plane returned and crash-landed on their own airfield, pilot slightly injured. 6 Yak-1 against 6 Bf 109s. Flight leader: Maj. Kovalenko.

154 ОАЭС lost a Po-2 biplane (S/N: 7103, engine: 08297) at Orosháza-N, 15 km with 3 people onboard. Crew of ml.l-t Anikeev has perished, they are buried at Kunszentmárton.

(5 VA, 264 ShAD, 235 and 809 ShAP also lost 1-1 IL-2, just like 90. GvShAP of 4. GvShAD. at Jászkisér-E, Kunmadaras and Szolnok-NW, 4 km... Plus the 92 IAP La-5FN, - see in prev. post.)

Yak-1s were related to German pilots (Barkhorn???), but I cannot match them.

Gabor

[HGabor]

Some additional info for Hartmann’s claims by their AC types and dates. Many were NOT related to dogfights at all:

November 1, 1944:
Found NO (permanent) Lavochkin loss for Hartmann!
(Only permanent La-5(F) loss was claimed by Hungarian Capt. Pottyondy László at Szolnok. 5 VA, 177. GvIAP La-5F, S/N: 39215336, engine: 6504268, piloted by gv.ml.l-t Evgenii Ivanovich Batyunya (Батюня), - injured.)

November 7, 1944:
5 VA, 150. GvIAP Yak-3 (S/N: perhaps 32(292)14, officially assigned to 5 VA, 13. GvIAD HQ/Stab., written off by November 11, 1944) was lost in a dogfight at 12:19 (local), piloted by gv.l-t Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov. Six Yaks at 1400 m in the Lajosmizse area against four ‘Fw 190’s. Frontal attack, the Yak-3 burst into flames, pilot’s hands injured, burned first degree, landed with parachute. Sent to hospital.

November 15, 1944:
Found NO (permanent) Yak loss for Hartmann!
(Only: 5 VA, 6. GvIAD, 85. GvIAP lost a Novosibirsk (Plant 153)-built Yak-9D: S/N: 2015344, engine: 415-640 in collision. Pilot: gv.ml.l-t Aleksei Ivanovich Silkin was OK.)

November 21, 1944:
Found NO (permanent) Lavochkin loss for Hartmann!

November 22, 1944:
One 809 ShAP IL-2 crash-landing at Csány, 7 km. (S/N: 1878785, later repaired and transferred to 451 ShAP.) Crew of Lt. Fedor Stepanovich Polunin and c-a Kuptsov.
Only one, not 3 IL-2s. (200% IL-2 overclaim this day!) Yaks lost by 17 VA, 288. IAD in the South: 659. IAP: Yak-9D, S/N: 2015306, engine: 415-1427 (ml.l-t Yurii Aleksandrovich Vinogradov), 897. IAP, Yak-9T, S/N: 0815335, engine: 345-248 at Harkány (ml.l-t Nikolai Kuzmich Konovalov) - NOT Hartmann's op. area!

November 23, 1944: 5 VA, 331 IAD has lost 3 Yak-1Bs:
122 IAP, S/:N: 32161, tactical white '1' - at take-off (8:40 local) right wing touched the ground, plane broke, ml.l-t. Evgenii Semenovich Titov is unhurt. Engine (No.355-1983) salvaged.
513 IAP, S/N: 29156 and 45168, Goichenko's and Kuyanov's Yak-1s: Six Yaks covering six 809 ShAP IL-2s. 6 Fw 190s attacked the IL-2s, another 4 the Yak-1s. AC type was probably wrong: probably 4 Bf 109s, not Fw190s. (One of them was Lipfert’s at Atkár!)

December 5, 1944:
5 VA, 279 IAD, 486 IAP lost La-5FN, S/N: 39212724, engine: 8213433. Pilot, ml.l-t Vladimir Grigorevich Snagovski was MIA as the wingman over Ercsi, Budapest-S in a dogfight at 11:55 (local) with 6 ‘Fw 190’s. A La-5 pair (Lt. Blinov - ml.l-t Snagovski) against 6 Germans. Probably a La-5 recce. pair.

December 9, 1944:
5 VA, 150. GvIAP lost a Yak-3, S/N: 2318 (2329218), engine: 422-304, piloted by gv.ml.l-t Lev Gerasimovich Kamanyan at 14:50 local. Crashlanded on airfield after mission to Baracska area at 1000 m. 2 Yak-3 and 2 Yak-9 against up to 20(!) ‘Fw 190’s.
5 VA, 513. IAP lost an Omsk (Plant 166)-built Yak-9D, S/N:, 19166063, piloted by Capt. Aleksandr Kuzmich Fokin, broken at landing due to soft airstrip at 13:20 (local). LAC, pilot slightly injured.
5 VA, 513. IAP lost a Novosibirsk (Plant 153)-built Yak-9M, S/N: 2515361, piloted by st.l-t Vasilii Pavlovich Fedosov at 13:50 (local) 4 Yak-9s protecting six 809 ShAP IL-2s in the Csömör area at 1500 m. Hit by flak over the target, crash-landed at Tiszanána. Pilot is OK.

I think November 16 and 17 was already mentioned earlier. On November 17, 1944: Hungarian Capt. Pottyondy László's Boston victory was Lt. Danielyan's 5 VA, 453. BAP Douglas A-20G-15-DO 'Boston', S/N: 42-53956, R-2600-23: engines: 42-154063 and 42-154199 near Ócsa. Note: only ONE Boston combat-loss this day in 5 (and 17) VA, - from which 2 killed crewmen: Rizhkov and Vigovski were buried nearby at Bugyi! On this mission Hartmann was Pottyondy's wingman as they often flew together. Pottyondy attacked the bomber while Hartmann just followed him. No A-20 Boston destroyed by Hartmann this day, max. one damaged! The other Boston (S/N: 42-54223), lost on the 17th was lost due to the foggy weather and crash-landing in SE-Hungary near Kevermes, en route to Arad (Oradea, RO.), - clearly not a combat loss.

I think, that’s all for Hartmann's claims in Hungary until December 9, 1944.

I have no idea about other countries, but IF this statistics was his average, then he did not shoot down more than 100-150 planes altogether!!!! Not even 30-40% of his famous 352! All the rest was just paperwork (means: max. damaged, but not destroyed planes) - and propaganda of the Luftwaffe.

Gabor

(Source of soviet records: TsAMO, Podolsk, Russia - Central Military Archives of the Russian Federation)

[Johannes]

Hi Gabor

Some good work there. Difficult to research him in 1945 as we cannot be absolutely shore what he claimed. I have fourteen claims for him not on the micro films in late November 1944, so cannot be sure about these. In March/April 1945 I found six claims on the KBT papers, but as no times were offered it would be difficult to say one way or another unless he was the only guy claiming that day. I bet his earlier claims as a wingman were honest, but as the Russians were losing so many aircraft at that time it would be a hell of a job to match anything up.

Apparently Maximilian Stotz was very honest/accurate in his claiming until the arrival of Hans "assi" Hahn to his unit, then they were bad, and you see a pronouced difference in his claiming pattern to huge daily claims, yet after Hahn's capture Stotz's claims moderate again........probably not even opportunism, looks like Hahn was a strong bad influence on him, and either he returned to honesty or was unable to fraud because of new company.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[HGabor]

Johannes,

Thank you. It sounds very interesting. If you wish, we can discuss those 14 additional claims for November, 1944. (Can be in PM too.) For 1945 I have not much to say as by then Hartmann left Hungary and was in battle with 5, 2 and 8 Air Armies over Silesia, Czech, etc. territory. Those soviet losses (serials, crews, dates, units, stories, etc.) of course, also could be checked and compared at TsAMO. But I have no records for them, as they are out of my research.

Cheers,

Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Brilliant work by Gabor! (...puts on Gabor for President T-shirt...)

...But can we please stop using the words "fraud" and "fraudster", it makes it sound like these pilots were into dudding little old ladies out of their pension cheques...

(and is a "reliable" pilot one who looked after the neighbours pet rabbits while they were on holidays, without letting them starve...?)

[HGabor]

Thanks! Credit to my friend(s) in Moscow.

Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Johannes, HGabor,

I think we should combine the info you have put into the thread together with mine and appeal to everyone else who is able to contribute, in order to account for all of Hartmann's known claims.

It would settle the debate pretty much once and for all...