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  #1  
Old 19th December 2019, 09:28
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GMichalski GMichalski is offline
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Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Hi,

have you any info of the losses for JG 52 or Peter Duttmann this day, there are some Hungarian claims and my info is confusing,

thanks,
regards
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Old 19th December 2019, 10:50
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Found Peter Düttmann's claims even less reliable than Hartmann's. (Not judging the cause, just telling the conclusion.) His 3 claims on November 13, 1944 (2 Yak-11s in the Tápiószőllős area and an IL-2 in the Jászberény area) seem to be 100% overclaim.

There were only 2 Yak losses in the morning on November 13, 1944 in the 5th Air Army, lost in dogfights:

One was a Yak-3 (wrongly called Yak-11?) near Ócsa at 10:41 Moscow time - 08:41 local at the altitude of 3500 m. (from 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 'red nose' 150 GvIAP, Yak-3, S/N: 3518, engine: 422-174, pilot: Gv.1Lt. Nikolai Alexeevich Kireev bailed out, wounded, sent to hospital.) 6 Yak-3 vs. 13 Me 109. A pair of Me 109s downed him. Time difference: ~20 mins., distance diff.: ~50-60 km from Düttmann's claims.

The other Yak (Yak-9D, S/N: 1815358) was lost around 11:54AM local time, so here I don't even go in the details. Same with the IL-2.

Gabor
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Old 19th December 2019, 11:55
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Hi Gabor,

So whose claims to these losses actually match?

Regards
Nick
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Old 19th December 2019, 13:44
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Hi Nick,
Sorry, I have no idea. Most claims that I know are for the afternoon. I have never collected claims (as they are sometimes just pure fiction, repeated by multiple Publications and 'experts', without having any info from the 'other side'), I have always been focusing on the losses, that are 'verified by their owners', therefore reflect the real events much better. Certainly I can make links between them in some specific cases, but to me the loss records are much more valuable.

5 VA, 451 ShAP IL-2, S/N: 1873177 was lost to Flak(!) at 14:50 Moscow time, 12:50 local and crashlanded at Besenyszög-E, crew (Capt. Chechenev - Sgt. Moiseev) unhurt. I think it does not fit Düttmann's IL-2 claim for '12:2' in the Jászberény area.

Yak-3, S/N: 3518, or '3529218' (as being from factory no.292 in Saratov), by the way, was probably marked '35'. Since the La-5s, La-7s, Yak-3s were factory-marked/numbered with their plane-in-the-batch number, this was No.'35'. (The 35th plane of Yak-3 batch No.18 from Saratov, Russia, factory No.292). See another 'red nose' Yak-3 example from the very same 150 GvIAP: Savelii Vasilevich Nosov's No.'12', alias Yak-3, S/N: 310312 in 1945. (Plane no.12 from Yak-3 batch No.03 from Tbilisi, factory No.31. It was assigned on April 16, 1945.)

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 12th January 2020 at 04:39.
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Old 19th December 2019, 20:22
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Other lost IL-2m3 on November 13, 1944 was IL-2 (S/N: 10454, AM-38F engine: 4590224) from 5 VA, 235 ShAP, which was downed by Flak and crashed into a house in Jászberény at 12:30 Moscow time, 10:30 local. Crew of ml.lt. Burkanov - Lyalin was killed/missing. Location would match Düttmann's IL-2 claim, but the cause of loss and the time of crash wouldn't. (Eight 235 ShAP IL-2s (Comm.: Denisenko) were escoreted by four 513 IAP Yak-9s, when flak hit Burkanov's plane.)


IL-2, S/N.: 1873177 (AM-38F engine No.: 4590226) was discussed previously.

The 3rd 5 Air Army IL-2 loss this day was IL-2, S/N: 9947 (AM-38F engine No.: 259496) which crashlanded during a ferry flight landing on the Kunmadaras airfield. 1 man crew(!) of ml.lt. Vasilevich was unhurt. Plane was flown and crashed without a gunner.

5 VA, 187 GvShAP IL-2, S/N: 1872913 exploded mid-air at low altitude at 15:45 Moscow time, 13:45 local, over Zsámbok-S, 3 km with the Bukanov-Maslov crew onboard, due to tank fire. (~Flakpanzer, or flakvierling) Both crewmen were KIA. 9 IL-2s (Comm.: Kulikov) were escorted by 6 La-5s in the Zsámbok-Tura area.

None of them matches Düttmann's IL-2 claim!

Other IL-2s (S/N: 1882202, 9547, 303505, 11180 - from the 208, 525, 637 ShAPs) were downed far away over Southern-Slovakia from the 8th Air Army, etc... Hope this helps for Düttmann.

Gabor
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Old 20th December 2019, 15:57
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Thumbs up Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

hi,

many thanks for your help,


regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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Old 23rd December 2019, 18:25
Maxim1 Maxim1 is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

As for Duttmann' s claims... quite a number of those were researched by Ivan Lavrinenko:

https://www.proza.ru/2016/07/07/1127

25. 29.12.1943 12:50 P-39 - overclaim
26. 03.01.1944 08:17 P-39 - overclaim
27. 03.01.1944 08:25 P-39 - possible, LaGG-3 of 249 IAP, k-t Osman Ziyadinov MIA
28. 15.01.1944 07:21 Il-2 m.H. - overclaim
29. 17.01.1944 06:41 Il-2 m.H. - overclaim
30. 21.01.1944 11:41 P-40 - LaGG-3 of 88 IAP, m. l-t Dmitry Shulzhenko or m. l-t. Petr Cherepnin, both KIA
31. 10.02.1944 09:25 Jak-1 - possible, 6 GIAP or 25 IAP
32. 10.02.1944 12:00 LaGG-3 - overclaim
33. 12.02.1944 08:52 Jak-1 - possible, LaGG-3 of 805 IAP or 25 IAP
34. 13.02.1944 07:48 P-39 -P-39 of 66 IAP, lt. Nikolay Sobolev WIA, crashlanded, a/c wright off
35. 13.02.1944 15:07 P-39 - overclaim
36. 14.02.1944 11:27 P-39 - possible, P-39 of 57 GIAP, m. lt. Ivan Shcherbak MIA
37. 26.02.1944 12:24 P-40 - P-40 of 83 GIAP, damaged, crashlanded
38. 01.03.1944 08:03 P-40 - possible, Yak-7b of 84 GIAP, damaged, m. lt. Zorin WIA
39. 02.03.1944 09:55 Jak-1 - possible, Yak-1 of 42 GIAP, damaged, st. lt. Zaytsev OK
40. 11.03.1944 16:22 Jak-1 - unclear but possible
41. 12.03.1944 07:45 P-40F - overclaim
42. 12.03.1944 07:52 P-40F - overclaim
43. 13.03.1944 08:35 Il-2 - possible, Il-2 of 8 GShAP or 47 ShAP
44. 14.03.1944 13:00 LaGG-3 - LaGG-3 of 249 IAP, st. lt. Petr Shcheblykin WIA
45. 16.03.1944 10:10 Il-2 - Il-2 of 7 GShAP, k-n Vladimir Demidov and st-na Vasily Poplavsky both WIA, Poplavsky DOW
46. 16.03.1944 10:11 Il-2 - overclaim
47. 16.03.1944 10:12 Il-2 - overclaim
48. 16.03.1944 10:13 P-40 - overclaim
49. 17.03.1944 09:15 LaGG-3 - overclaim
50. 17.03.1944 09:20 LaGG-3 - overclaim
51. 17.03.1944 09:21 LaGG-3 - overclaim
52. 17.03.1944 09:23 Il-2 - overclaim
53. 26.03.1944 09:23 Jak-1 - possible, Yak-9 of 15 IAP, m. lt. Ivan Dmitriyev MIA
54. 26.03.1944 16:07 Jak-1 - possible, Yak-9 of 274 IAP, m-r Nikolay Volchkov KIA
55. 26.03.1944 16:08 Jak-1 - overclaim
56. 05.04.1944 13:11 LaGG-5 - overclaim
57. 05.04.1944 17:26 Il-2 - possible, Il-2 of 210 ShAP, damaged, later repaired
58. 05.04.1944 17:30 P-40F - overclaim
59. 05.04.1944 17:31 P-40F - overclaim
...
61. 09.04.1944 10:09 Il-2 - possible
62. 09.04.1944 10:12 Il-2 - overclaim

In total: 5 confirmed, 12 possible, 20 overclaims

Regards,
Maksim

Last edited by Maxim1; 23rd December 2019 at 20:44.
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