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  #21  
Old 22nd December 2019, 03:10
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Yep, I still do not know the answer. Put it aside for later ;-))
Gabor
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  #22  
Old 22nd December 2019, 06:08
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Gabor,

here is a link to the Australian Defence Force DC-3/C-47 listing.

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/2a65.htm

Note that the serial 42-24140 is not listed there, in fact, that particular block of serial numbers runs out precisely at 43-24139.

I think that gives an edge to the belief that the American listing is wrong and that the Russian listing of 24140 is indeed correct.

So: 42-24135 to 42-24139 came to Australia.
42-24140 went to the VVS but was assumed to have been among those that came here.

Makes sense?

Last edited by Nick Hector; 22nd December 2019 at 06:10. Reason: Added in non-live link
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  #23  
Old 22nd December 2019, 07:30
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Hello,

Here are the results of the late Jennifer Gradidge's researches on C-47As 10002/42-24140, 11866/42-92103 and 11967/42-92194:

C/ns 10001 to 10183 - C-47A-50-DL - Contract No AC-20669: 42-24139 to 42-24321.

10002 - 42-24140 D05Aug43 - Russia - [Note: USAAF records state that this went to the RAAF; however, c/n 11967 which is quoted for A65-20 in civil records is given by the USAAF as going to Russia, so it would appear the USAAF records have become mixed]. (p.385)

11866 -42-92103 D24Aug43 -Russia 19Apr44 - [for VH-TAF see c/n 11967] (p.400)

C/ns 11854 to 12213 - C-47A-1-DK - Contract No AC-28405: 42-92-92092 to 42-92416, with every tenth aircraft in the block 42-108801 to 42-108836 from c/n 11858.

11967 - 42-92194 - D14Oct43 - A65-20 - has c/n 11896 but 42-92194 on the USAAF plate [USAAF records state that 42-92103 went to Russia see also c/n 10002] A65-20 VHCTU 08Dec43 - 35 Sq 21Dec43 -33 Sq 04Jul45 - VH-TAF Trans Australia A/L "Warburton" B23Aug46, R11Oct46 - VH-SBM "Ivan Champion" Rr 13Apr61 - Australian Acft Sales 30Mar68 - PK-RDE SeulawahAir Svve "Windu Kentlana" R24Aug68, D26Sep68 - Suelawah/Mandala (1971) - No Longer Registered. (pp.400 & 402)

See:
The Douglas DC1/DC2/DC3 The First Seventy Years - Volume 2.
Gradidge,Jennifer M., et al.
Tonbridge:Air-Britain,2006.
pp.385, 400 & 402.

Col.

Last edited by Col Bruggy; 22nd December 2019 at 08:01.
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  #24  
Old 22nd December 2019, 12:27
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Thank you guys for clarifying the service history of C-47A, S/N: 42-24140. So she was lost in soviet service indeed on November 16, 1944 and the Australian delivery in the American record is incorrect. I edit it accordingly. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone!

Cheers,
Gabor
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  #25  
Old 22nd December 2019, 14:06
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Hi guys, back to Düttmann. His claims over Hungary were discussed years ago:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...&postcount=187

In this list he claimed two Yak-3s on March 8, 1945 that back then I still identified as two 17 VA, 288 IAD, 866 IAP Yak-3s: one overclaim, the other one as S/N: 310099 (engine serial: 422-166) from Tbilisi, factory No.31, piloted by Lt. Victor Vasilevich Yablochkin (KIA/MIA). I checked the loss-details of Yablochkin's Yak-3 again. At 16:20 Moscow time (14:20 local) 6 Yaks, led by Maj. Ivan Fedorovich Panin were flying over the Seregélyes-NE area and met 8 Bf 109s. After the dogfight Panin saw a huge, but unidentified smoke raising from the ground. Yablochkin went missing.

(Note, that this time a huge tank-battle took place below them in the area (3. day of Germany's last, so called Frühlingserwachen, or 'Spring Awakening' offensive!), in which both sides suffered huge losses in an effort to break through the defense lines between Lake Balaton and the city of Székesfehérvár, eg.:

3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 110 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '406', chassis no.: 412836 (Sgt. Yurii Petrovich Cherkasov, unhurt)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 110 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '407', chassis no.: 412928 (Sgt. I. S. Gorokhov, unhurt)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 110 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '409', chassis no.: 4120466 (perhaps ml.lt. Dmitrii Ivanovich Grigorenko -unhurt, or ml.Lt. Ibrahimov -KIA?)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 110 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '412', chassis no.: 4110247 (perhaps ml.lt. Dmitrii Ivanovich Grigorenko -unhurt, or ml.Lt. Ibrahimov -KIA?)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 110 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '414', chassis no.: 412915 (ml.lt. Georgii Philippovich Potapov, unhurt)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 110 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '447', chassis no.: 412511 (perhaps ml.lt. Dmitrii Ivanovich Grigorenko -unhurt, or ml.Lt. Ibrahimov -KIA?)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 363 gd.self.prop.art.rgt.: ISU-122S: '301', chassis no.: 41224 (gv.lt. Victor Andreevich Katkov, unhurt, comm. of 3rd bttn.)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 363 gd.self.prop.art.rgt.: ISU-122S: '303', chassis no.: 41226 (gv.lt. Dmitrii Kirillovich Kosinov, KIA)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 170 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '5xx', chassis no.: 41xxxx (Sgt. Semen Mikhailovich Shaligin, KIA)

I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 'Das Reich': Panther Ausf. G, claimed by T-34/85 '408', chassis no.: 412085 (ml.Lt. Kuzma Petrovich Tarasov) - 110 tank-brigade
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 'Das Reich': Panther Ausf. G, claimed by T-34/85 '408', chassis no.: 412085 (ml.Lt. Kuzma Petrovich Tarasov) - 110 tank-brigade
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 'Das Reich': Panther Ausf. G, claimed by T-34/85 '408', chassis no.: 412085 (ml.Lt. Kuzma Petrovich Tarasov) - 110 tank-brigade
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 'Das Reich': Panther Ausf. G, claimed by T-34/85 '414', chassis no.: 412915 (ml.Lt. Georgii Philippovich Potapov) - 110 tank-brigade
II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 'Das Reich': Pz.IV. Ausf. J, claimed by T-34/85 '545', chassis no.: 4121591 (ml.Lt. Arhip Petrovich Dedov) - 170 tank-brigade
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 'Hohenstaufen': Panther Ausf. G, probably destroyed by a 18 tank corps, 208 self.prop.art.brigade, 1016 self.prop.art.rgt. SU-100
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 'Hohenstaufen': Panther Ausf. G, probably destroyed by a 18 tank corps, 208 self.prop.art.brigade, 1016 self.prop.art.rgt. SU-100
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 'Hohenstaufen': Panther Ausf. G, probably destroyed by a 18 tank corps, 208 self.prop.art.brigade, 1016 self.prop.art.rgt. SU-100
7./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 'Das Reich': StuG III. Ausf. G, '7xx', claimed by M4-A2(76)W 'Sherman' '139', chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080899 (Gv.Lt. Mikhail Ananevich Erastov), 3 Ukr. Front, 1 Gv. Mech. Corps., 18 Gv.Tank-Regiment., ..........etc-etc.)

So the smoke on the ground literally could be anything, not necessarily Yablochkin's Yak-3! Either, or, his time of crash around 14:20 (local) does not match Düttmann's Yak-3 claims at 16:24 at Aba-SW, 3 km and at 16:27 at Aba-S, 4 km.
Hungarian Bf 109G pilot, Kálmán István zls. (101/7. Sq.) claimed a Yak-3 at Dömsöd-NE, 1 km at 14:45 local, which is closer to Yablochkin's loss in time, but still not matching.

17 VA, 288 IAD, 897 IAP also lost a Yak-9T this day in the Börgönd area at 16:40 Moscow, 14:40 local time. A recce. pair of Yak-9s (1Lt. Kondratev - Ml.Lt. Eliseenko) flew in the area when they met 4 Bf 109s and 1Lt. Grigorii Ivanovich Kondratev went missing in his Yak-9T, S/N: 0815354. Eliseenkov returned home alone. Perhaps the Hungarian fighter shot him down at 14:45 and reported wrongly as a Yak-3? Hungarians usually flew in smaller groups, so the reported 4 Bf 109 rather suggest this. (Ml.Lt. Georgii Semenovich Eliseenkov was killed just in a few days near Fáncs on March 12, 1945 in a dogfight in his Yak-3, S/N: 310370 around 17:05 local.)

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 23rd December 2019 at 12:49.
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  #26  
Old 22nd December 2019, 16:36
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

hi,

your info is great! i can only add one claim you don´t have or you forgot to comment:

1,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Il-2 ostlich Kecskemet E Kecskemet 1409 1000 E J 120


info by Johannes Matthews claims,

regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
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"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
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  #27  
Old 22nd December 2019, 17:21
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Csaba B. Stenge Csaba B. Stenge is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Hector View Post
193rd claim
21.3.45/1530
Yak-9M (“Yak-5”)
Felsőgalla
No. 4515340 of 179 IAP, 331 IAD, 5 VA. Lt. Viktor Yakovlevich Ragulin MIA
A Hungarian ace, Lt. Nánási also claimed a Yak-9 at this time and closer to the reported area of loss, mentioned by Soviet sources.
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  #28  
Old 22nd December 2019, 19:58
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Thank you. On November 1, 1944 the 5 Air Army lost these IL-2s permanently:

5 VA, 264 ShAD, 235 ShAP IL-2 (S/N: 10472, AM-38F engine: 256645), crashed at Törtel, downed by flak. Astahov-Novikov crew missing. Take-off time was 12:50 local, 6 IL-2s led by Denisenko, escorted by 4 513 IAP Yak-9s. Flak fire received over Jászladány and Rékas (now: Zagyvarékas).

5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP records not clear yet. Perhaps 2 IL-2 losses, Gv.Lt. Ivlev belly landed at Nagykőrös, Gv.Capt. Kurilov at Árboz, - have to check in deeper.

Hungarian Bf 109G fighters were really successful this day. Málnássy Ferenc hdgy. downed Ml.Lt. Aaron Iosifovich Polonskii's 5 VA, 218 BAD, 452 BAP A-20G-1-DO Boston (S/N: 42-53754, R-2600-23 engines: 42-154008, 42-154041) near Gyomaendrőd during their Cegléd mission, while Kálmán István zls. damaged ml.lt. Lev Nikolaevich Velikanov's A-20G-10-DO Boston (S/N: 42-53947, R-2600-23 engines: 42-174974, 42-174895) near Tiszaalpár.

Capt. Pottyondy László (102/2. Squadron) downed Evgenii Ivanovich Batyunya's (Батюня) Lavochkin La-5F at Szolnok. (5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, S/N: 39215336, engine: 6504268)

5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP lost a Yak-1B (S/N: 08175, engine: 345-2353, Gv.Lt. Alexandr Semenovich Andrianov, POW - Combat between 8 Yaks, led by Maj. Zuev and 8 Bf 109 over Nagykőrös area at 4500-6000 m.), and temporarily a damaged, Omsk-built Yak-9D (S/N: 18166046). That's all.

Gabor
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  #29  
Old 23rd December 2019, 14:47
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by HGabor View Post
Hi guys, back to Düttmann. His claims over Hungary were discussed years ago:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...&postcount=187

In this list he claimed two Yak-3s on March 8, 1945 that back then I still identified as two 17 VA, 288 IAD, 866 IAP Yak-3s: one overclaim, the other one as S/N: 310099 (engine serial: 422-166) from Tbilisi, factory No.31, piloted by Lt. Victor Vasilevich Yablochkin (KIA/MIA). I checked the loss-details of Yablochkin's Yak-3 again. At 16:20 Moscow time (14:20 local) 6 Yaks, led by Maj. Ivan Fedorovich Panin were flying over the Seregélyes-NE area and met 8 Bf 109s. After the dogfight Panin saw a huge, but unidentified smoke raising from the ground. Yablochkin went missing.

(Note, that this time a huge tank-battle took place below them in the area (3. day of Germany's last, so called Frühlingserwachen, or 'Spring Awakening' offensive!), in which both sides suffered huge losses in an effort to break through the defense lines between Lake Balaton and the city of Székesfehérvár, eg.:

3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 110 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '406', chassis no.: 412836 (Sgt. Yurii Petrovich Cherkasov, unhurt)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 110 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '407', chassis no.: 412928 (Sgt. I. S. Gorokhov, unhurt)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 110 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '409', chassis no.: 4120466 (perhaps ml.lt. Dmitrii Ivanovich Grigorenko -unhurt, or ml.Lt. Ibrahimov -KIA?)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 110 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '412', chassis no.: 4110247 (perhaps ml.lt. Dmitrii Ivanovich Grigorenko -unhurt, or ml.Lt. Ibrahimov -KIA?)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 110 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '414', chassis no.: 412915 (ml.lt. Georgii Philippovich Potapov, unhurt)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 110 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '447', chassis no.: 412511 (perhaps ml.lt. Dmitrii Ivanovich Grigorenko -unhurt, or ml.Lt. Ibrahimov -KIA?)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 363 gd.self.prop.art.rgt.: ISU-122S: '301', chassis no.: 41224 (gv.lt. Victor Andreevich Katkov, unhurt, comm. of 3rd bttn.)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 363 gd.self.prop.art.rgt.: ISU-122S: '303', chassis no.: 41226 (gv.lt. Dmitrii Kirillovich Kosinov, KIA)
3 Ukr. Front, 18 tank corps, 170 tank-brigade: T-34/85: '5xx', chassis no.: 41xxxx (Sgt. Semen Mikhailovich Shaligin, KIA)

I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 'Das Reich': Panther Ausf. G, claimed by T-34/85 '408', chassis no.: 412085 (ml.Lt. Kuzma Petrovich Tarasov) - 110 tank-brigade
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 'Das Reich': Panther Ausf. G, claimed by T-34/85 '408', chassis no.: 412085 (ml.Lt. Kuzma Petrovich Tarasov) - 110 tank-brigade
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 'Das Reich': Panther Ausf. G, claimed by T-34/85 '408', chassis no.: 412085 (ml.Lt. Kuzma Petrovich Tarasov) - 110 tank-brigade
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 'Das Reich': Panther Ausf. G, claimed by T-34/85 '414', chassis no.: 412915 (ml.Lt. Georgii Philippovich Potapov) - 110 tank-brigade
II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 'Das Reich': Pz.IV. Ausf. J, claimed by T-34/85 '545', chassis no.: 4121591 (ml.Lt. Arhip Petrovich Dedov) - 170 tank-brigade
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 'Hohenstaufen': Panther Ausf. G, probably destroyed by a 18 tank corps, 208 self.prop.art.brigade, 1016 self.prop.art.rgt. SU-100
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 'Hohenstaufen': Panther Ausf. G, probably destroyed by a 18 tank corps, 208 self.prop.art.brigade, 1016 self.prop.art.rgt. SU-100
I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 'Hohenstaufen': Panther Ausf. G, probably destroyed by a 18 tank corps, 208 self.prop.art.brigade, 1016 self.prop.art.rgt. SU-100
7./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 'Das Reich': StuG III. Ausf. G, '7xx', claimed by M4-A2(76)W 'Sherman' '139', chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080899 (Gv.Lt. Mikhail Ananevich Erastov), 3 Ukr. Front, 1 Gv. Mech. Corps., 18 Gv.Tank-Regiment., ..........etc-etc.)

So the smoke on the ground literally could be anything, not necessarily Yablochkin's Yak-3! Either, or, his time of crash around 14:20 (local) does not match Düttmann's Yak-3 claims at 16:24 at Aba-SW, 3 km and at 16:27 at Aba-S, 4 km.
Hungarian Bf 109G pilot, Kálmán István zls. (101/7. Sq.) claimed a Yak-3 at Dömsöd-NE, 1 km at 14:45 local, which is closer to Yablochkin's loss in time, but still not matching.

17 VA, 288 IAD, 897 IAP also lost a Yak-9T this day in the Börgönd area at 16:40 Moscow, 14:40 local time. A recce. pair of Yak-9s (1Lt. Kondratev - Ml.Lt. Eliseenko) flew in the area when they met 4 Bf 109s and 1Lt. Grigorii Ivanovich Kondratev went missing in his Yak-9T, S/N: 0815354. Eliseenkov returned home alone. Perhaps the Hungarian fighter shot him down at 14:45 and reported wrongly as a Yak-3? Hungarians usually flew in smaller groups, so the reported 4 Bf 109 rather suggest this. (Ml.Lt. Georgii Semenovich Eliseenkov was killed just in a few days near Fáncs on March 12, 1945 in a dogfight in his Yak-3, S/N: 310370 around 17:05 local.)

Gabor



Can this type of material perhaps help us establish the accuracy of Rudel's claims against Russian armour, or perhaps those of Wittmann, Knispel and Carius?
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  #30  
Old 23rd December 2019, 16:18
Maxim1 Maxim1 is offline
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Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Hector View Post
Can this type of material perhaps help us establish the accuracy of Rudel's claims against Russian armour, or perhaps those of Wittmann, Knispel and Carius?
13 victory claims made by Rudel against Soviet tanks on 8.02.1945 were researched in that article:

'Thirteen tanks for one foot?'

https://warspot.ru/13416-trinadtsat-tankov-za-odnu-nogu

At best only one of 13 claims can be confirmed as destroyed and two as damaged. But even those claims cannot be 100% attributed to Rudel.

Regards,
Maksim

Last edited by Maxim1; 23rd December 2019 at 20:50.
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