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Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. |
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#51
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
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Hurricane almost finished it's combat career on the Eastern front (exept North Pole) on November 1942... |
#52
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
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Hm , then we have a small problem of credibility of pilot like Dolguszin from 180. IAP, he fought on Hurricanes and claimed 4-5 enemy planes on this type during the battle of Stalingrad - first phase of this battle far from the city and not over (it was on podstupiach Stalingrada). See his memories in MIR Aviacji of 1.1992. His regiment had given its few survived Hurricanes directly to 436 IAP. So pilot Dolguszin (HSU in 1942) is accoriding you a lier (?). 180. IAP sould not to have Hurricanes (?), and he had created his memories as pure fanthasy? The same with 191 IAP, which fought over Novyj Oskol for example and claimed victories over German planes being equippted with Hurricanes see materials written by Kotienikov or Roman (both from Russia). 3-ed - there is a ghoust of commander sub-colonel Podgornovo of 235. IAD of 8. VA. Hm, yes your opinion look then very, very strange. Summary Me and several others peoples are making huge errors and faults writing about "ghoust division", which according you never existed and fought in 1942 with Hurricanes or you are wrong. There is nothing between? Very interesting! Regards, Mirek Wawrzynski
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Mirek Wawrzyński |
#53
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
Everything is ok with Dolgushin and his memoirs. The official date of beginning for Stalingrad battle is July 17, 1942. To this date none of the mentioned regiments were combat ready exept 436 IAP. Thus, we do not have any whole equipped Hurricane division during the Stalingrad battle. Moreover, I should say that 235 IAD participated in the Stalingrad battle with regiments mostly equipped with Lagg-3s such as 13 IAP and 156 IAP.
I do not deny the existance of 235 IAD and Col. Podgornyi as its commander, but be precise with facts... |
#54
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Re: Frankly, look at 1-st yourself with precise remarks!
OK
I know that not whole division was send just in one time into the battle but partialy. More to many times is mentioned that: 46, 180, 191, 436 of 235. IAD were equipted in Hurricanes and were in 235. IAD structure, you may see and check the link in Russian: http://www.allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi...ruct/p_all.dat There is mentioned above regiments and used by them Hurricanes in the "Battle of Stalingarad" - first period about VI-IX 42. Sorry but you still "accused/sustein" to many peoples about "blidness" or "stupidness". More info of 235. IAD "13.06.42 г. вошла в состав 8-й ВА. С 10.09.1942 г. входила в состав 1-го иак." And about 46. IAP "Летом 1942 г. входил в состав 235-й иад. К концу августа 1942 г. после напряженных боев на сталинградском направлении в полку осталось 4-5 "Харрикейнов." There you may fine more infor about next 3 regiments, and you still sustain your opinion about Łagg-3 in others unit. Of course there were earlier or later. In my opinion 235. IAD had different regiments including 4 ones on Hurricanes, which during the battle were used and withdrawn for re-supply and new one were put into the service. But your 1 post denaied any rights for 4 regiments being in comabts in Stalingard battle on Hurricanes - this is strange! You still want to makes from some authors an idiots - funy? Regards mw PS See what have you personaly written, it is great precise: The only VVS unit equipped with Hurricanes which took part in the Stalingrad battle was 436 IAP. You wants from me to be precise, but your claims are not precise and more you do not present true statmens making a mass anyway! Sorry, frankly you do not know what you are writing about!
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Mirek Wawrzyński |
#55
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
LOL.
I know that not whole division was send just in one time into the battle but partialy. More to many times is mentioned that: 46, 180, 191, 436 of 235. IAD were equipted in Hurricanes and were in 235. IAD structure, you may see and check the link in Russian: I know this link. That is true. There is mentioned above regiments and used by them Hurricanes in the "Battle of Stalingarad" - first period about VI-IX 42. Sorry but you still "accused/sustein" to many peoples about "blidness" or "stupidness". More info of 235. IAD "13.06.42 г. вошла в состав 8-й ВА. С 10.09.1942 г. входила в состав 1-го иак." And about 46. IAP "Летом 1942 г. входил в состав 235-й иад. К концу августа 1942 г. после напряженных боев на сталинградском направлении в полку осталось 4-5 "Харрикейнов." I know Vasiliy Kharin, whose site it is, personally. Unfortunatelly, his sources are mostly based on the open records (memoirs, history books and etc.). They are not so reliable as we wish to be. Note the date of entering 235 IAD into 8 VA - June 13, 1942. This is the battle of Kharkov. For the past two months 235 IAD was completely destroyed in the battles of Kharkov, Voronezh and other retreat operations. Thus, none of the above-mentioned regiments flew any combat sorties in the Stalingrad battle exept 436 IAP. All Hurricanes were accumulated in 436 IAP, which conducted combat duties for the first several days of Stalingrad battle from July 17 till July 26. On July 22, 1942 265 IAD was withdrawn from 8 VA and its regiments: 13 IAP and 156 IAP were handled to 235 IAD. From this time Hurricanes of 436 IAP made few combat sorties and soon were sent to rest and refit. BTW, from what source you draw a conclusion that 1 IAK ever participated in Stalingrad battle? 235 IAD was in 1 IAK for a short time in september-october 1942. It was equipped with La-5s and was far away from Stalingrad... К концу августа 1942 г. после напряженных боев на сталинградском направлении в полку осталось 4-5 "Харрикейнов." By the end of August 46 IAP was already withdrawn from the frontline. But your 1 post denaied any rights for 4 regiments being in comabts in Stalingard battle on Hurricanes - this is strange! I do not deny. I simply know that from operational documents of 235 IAD. See what have you personaly written, it is great precise: The only VVS unit equipped with Hurricanes which took part in the Stalingrad battle was 436 IAP. Key words here are "Stalingrad battle". Other regiments did not live long to be combat ready for the Stalingrad battle. |
#56
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
Talking of Hurricanes in the Stalingrad Battle, on January 20, 1943 two Rumanian Bf 109E pilots claimed a Hurricane each over Kudinov.
Can the victims' identity be established?
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Dénes |
#57
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
We need to check where is Kudinov. I doubt that this could be Hurricanes as non of the units were equipped with them in VAs around Stalingrad.
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#58
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
Key words here are "Stalingrad battle". Other regiments did not live long to be combat ready for the Stalingrad battle.
Yes it is the key word, I think the day of begining of "Fall Blau" was the begining of operation for "capturing" Stalingrad (28 VI 1942). The first phase to capture Voronez, nextr to Don river (Don's bend) and later towards Stalingard. For me this is the period of begining the battle + phases. So it was the first pahse battle for Stalingard of capturing in Novyj Oskol railway stattion a few Hurricanes (2 at least) by German + Hungarian troops + 1 LaGG-3 more. Planes were damaged after belly landing. Charkov's battle was earlier, a little bit. С 10.09.1942 г. входила в состав 1-го иак." This info comming from Vasiliy Kharin's site. Regards MirekW
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Mirek Wawrzyński |
#59
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
Mapquest found four Kudinov in Russia, all of them located south-west of Stalingrad:
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp...=&city=kudinov
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Dénes |
#60
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?
>Yes it is the key word, I think the day of begining of "Fall Blau" was the begining of operation for "capturing" Stalingrad (28 VI 1942). The first phase to capture Voronez, nextr to Don river (Don's bend) and later towards Stalingard. For me this is the period of begining the battle + phases.
You're just completely wrong. If you want to refer to German terms, then Blau is not a Battle for Stalingrad at all. That's the plan of German summer offensive on south sector in general, including drive to Voronezh and two main offensives - to Stalingrad and Caucasus. So, the planes which took part in combats for Voronezh and Northern Caucasus can't be regarded as taking part in Stalingrad battle. If you will use Soveit terms, then there was a Voronezh-Voroshilovgrad Strategic Defensive Operation (28.6 - 24.7.42), Stalingrad Strategic Defensive Operation (17.7-18.11.42) and North-Caucasian Strategic Defensive Operation (25.7-31.12.42). So, there were no those Hurricanes near Stalingrad and they didn't take part in Battle for Stalingrad. And learn to teach on your mistakes and admit your mistakes, don't dispute by any cost. If the researcher, who directly worked in TsAMO with the documents of that IAD, tells you something, just obey the circumstances. Because your own knowledge about subject of discussion (Soviet Hurricanes) is rather poor, doesn't matter you wrote some article.
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Best regards, Andrey |
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