shoot down ME262

[cpaige5@hotmail.com]

When was the first ME262 shoot down behind allied lines, that the Allied intelligence got to explore? I would presume that very few were shoot down behind the lines before the war ended.

[Karoband]

Hi,

From Dan O'Connell. Me 262 Production Log, (2005), p. 45:

"170040 Call sign KI+IT. Me 262 A-2a. ... Lt. Rolf Weidemann of 3./KG 51 was KIA in this aircraft, coded '9K+OL', on 8 September 1944. He was shot down by light British flak 5 miles northeast of Diest, Belgium (or Maastricht, Netherlands) while strafing troops with its two MK 108 cannon at about 500 feet. This was the first Me 262 to be examined by Allied intelligence. Although the airframe was completely destroyed when it crashed into a forest, its engines were recovered and sent to the RAE at Farborough [sic] in the UK for examination ..."

Richard T. Eger, in this source, gives more information:

http://www.lwag.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3235

best regards,

Jim Geens

[ClinA-78]

Hello,

Following witnesses, one can claim Me 262 a-2a (170013) was shot down by AAA when strafing an US convoy near Banneux (B) on the 10th September 1944 at the Liberation. Oblt. Werner GÄRTNER (3./KG(J) 51) crash-landed successfully but was shot without trial. He is still missing.

This crash was surely investigated by allied troops but any mention in reports.

Best regards

ClinA-78

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by ClinA-78

Hello,

Following witnesses, one can claim Me 262 a-2a (170013) was shot down by AAA when strafing an US convoy near Banneux (B) on the 10th September 1944 at the Liberation. Oblt. Werner GÄRTNER (3./KG(J) 51) crash-landed successfully but was shot without trial. He is still missing.

This crash was surely investigated by allied troops but any mention in reports.

Best regards

ClinA-78

There's mention in the Deutsche Volksbund war graves database either. Jan Horn's book »Das Flurschaden-Geschwader« has Gärtner down as wounded ("Verl.") but in Ultra there is the following:

On 17/10 GELIP (Luftgau) V, IA Op. 1, issued a circular reporting the following a/c as missing:
… Me 262, 9K+LL, Works No. 170013, pilot Obltn. GAERTNER, belonging to Detachment EDELWEISS, took off on 19/9 from RHEINE to operate in the LIEGE area.

That date could well be incorrect because Luftflotte 3 recorded one aircraft of Einsatzkdo. Schenck missing on the 10th whereas no jet losses are reported for the 19th.

P.S. KG 51 was not among the bomber units converted to a KG(J), it remained a plain KG until the end of the war.

[ClinA-78]

Thanks Nick.

Being not involved in that search, I was told the 262 strafed the US column (at the Liberation of Liège area) and, 'in retaliation', angry soldiers murdered the pilot which was seen as 'highly decorated'. He was last seen walking, under guard, toward a wood not far from the crashsite...

ClinA-78

[cpaige5@hotmail.com]

This question now leads into the question when did the Allies interrogate their first jet pilot pow? It would be interesting to what they learned!

[Karoband]

Hi,

Surprisingly, the earliest incident of the capture of a shot-down Me 262 pilot I could find was on 21 April 1945 when the pilot in Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 501221 'yellow 3' was shot down by U.S. ground troops near Kloetze.

That would make the defection of test-pilot Hans Fay in the newly-built, unpainted Me 262 A-1a W.Nr. 111711 from Schwabisch-Hall to Rhein-Main on 31 March 1945 the earliest chance for the Allies to debrief a Me 262 pilot. Below is the summary of Hans Fey's [sic] debriefing.

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Im...LOTDEBRIEF.pdf

However, I am hoping that a member has an example of an earlier capture.

P.S. I have just found a source that says Ofw. Helmut Buchner somehow escaped "uncaptured" on 21 April. My mistake.

Jim

[Karoband]

Correction: His name, of course, is Hermann Buchner. The source of the new information is the 10th post in:

http://ehangar.com/forum/work-critiq...legener-sieger

Jim

[Juha]

Hello
there is nothing on that in Buchner's memoirs (Stormbird), according to that book during his last combat sortie he was attacked by a RAF Mustang while making an emergency landing on Rothenburg an der Wimme because of lack of fuel. The Me 262 Yellow 3 W.Nr. 501221 burned out. The date is given as 8 April 45 in the text and as about 25 April in the caption of the colour profile of the Yellow 3 W.Nr. 501221. Buchner's Flugbuch for April 45 was stolen By US troops after the war, so the date isn't sure.

Juha

[Juha]

BTW the Me 262 shot down on 28 Nov 1944 near Helmond mentioned by Eger in LWAG thread was shot down by 2875 LAA Sqn / RAF Regiment deployed on the a/f at Helmond according to Through Adversity The History of the Royal Air Force Regiment by Kingsley M Oliver.

Juha