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  #1  
Old 2nd August 2005, 15:34
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jochen Prien
Struve's have done a very good job both with the b/w and with the colour photos; we have not " enhanced " the latter but have printed them just as the originals are, some of them very good, while others have either suffered from time or have always been too greenish or brownish owing to the film material available then. But see for yourself.
Beg me pardon, but why? I remember old poor ORWO had varying tint depending on batch and sensitivity (UT21 was better than UT18 IIRC) but this also changed with time. Nonetheless I always wanted to have them in proper colours and not greenish.
I think publishing the photos as they are makes little sense, especially as they are adjusted to changes during DTP and printing process. Removal of tint is simple process and does not affect colour balance, if anyone wants, he may turn the photo green, purple or whatever colour he wishes.
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Old 2nd August 2005, 17:21
Jochen Prien Jochen Prien is offline
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Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I

Dear Franek,

I'm sorry that you don't share my point of view with respect to enhancing old colour photos; I feel it is a little bit like forgery to change the colours in a way that you think things should have looked like. I'd much rather leave this bit of interpretation to the reader.

The good news for you is: You know where you're at with it so you don't have to buy it.

Cheers

Jochen Prien
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Old 2nd August 2005, 17:35
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Franek Grabowski
Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jochen Prien
I'm sorry that you don't share my point of view with respect to enhancing old colour photos; I feel it is a little bit like forgery to change the colours in a way that you think things should have looked like. I'd much rather leave this bit of interpretation to the reader.
The good news for you is: You know where you're at with it so you don't have to buy it.
Well, I may send you some prints done from the same negative but showing completely differend shades. I do not think it is a forgery. Please note, that we talk about changing profile of the whole photo, so it is always possible to turn it back into original form. It is also possible to add a small preview shot to show how the photo looked originally.
Argument, that I do not need to buy the book is valid, I am not interested in the Eastern Front. Nonetheless I have JG53 volume by Schiffer and I have scanned the photos to see them in more natural colours. Unfortunatelly the effect was not as good as it could have been with original slides.
Regards
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Old 3rd August 2005, 18:10
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Franek Grabowski
Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I

Primoz, some corrections are too obvious. The sky is never green, at least in Poland.
Of course, you cannot adjust colours accuratelly, especially as printing process will cause more or less subtle differencies. But in DTP process you have to adjust pictures anyway just in order to print them properly. Printing photos as they are is a fiction or will result in horrible quality - this reffers both to B&W and colour stuff.
I enclose two scans done by Claes Sundin years ago, one as is in the book, the second one being corrected. Sorry, I do not have anything other at hand.
I think the difference is substantial and I cannot imagine anybody will guess the colours hiding behind the green tint.
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Old 3rd August 2005, 18:16
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George Hopp George Hopp is offline
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Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I

As with Franek, I would prefer to get the color photos in corrected colors -- that is, if as in his example, you have a good color to compare against to start the balancing.
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Old 4th August 2005, 04:53
leonventer leonventer is offline
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Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primoz
Of course there's nothing wrong with it being much larger, more detailed, with lots of interesting photos
I'll second that! This series is what I've always wanted: a comprehensive and consistent treatment of all units of the Jagdwaffe by the most qualified and dedicated individuals in our field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primoz
I think it'll take several more years to complete this huge project (so please take good care of your health because some of us would like to buy all these good books right until the last one covering the last days of the Luftwaffe).
Amen! Keep up the great work.

Leon Venter
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Old 4th August 2005, 12:44
Jukka Juutinen Jukka Juutinen is offline
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Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski
Beg me pardon, but why? I remember old poor ORWO had varying tint depending on batch and sensitivity (UT21 was better than UT18 IIRC) but this also changed with time. Nonetheless I always wanted to have them in proper colours and not greenish.
I think publishing the photos as they are makes little sense, especially as they are adjusted to changes during DTP and printing process. Removal of tint is simple process and does not affect colour balance, if anyone wants, he may turn the photo green, purple or whatever colour he wishes.
I know I have been a harsh critic of Prien´s books, but here I must congratulate mr. Prien for not forgering the photos. Franek, what you suggest is forgery of historical documents and must be judged accordingly.
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Old 4th August 2005, 14:37
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Sergio Luis dos Santos Sergio Luis dos Santos is offline
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Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen
I know I have been a harsh critic of Prien´s books, but here I must congratulate mr. Prien for not forgering the photos. Franek, what you suggest is forgery of historical documents and must be judged accordingly.
Well, in fact most readers and modellers may scan the photos and play a little through image softwares and have their own interpretation about colors, it´s an interesting game.
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Old 4th August 2005, 15:05
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Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I

George, the 2 photos Franek had kindly posted are very good examples to my contrary opinion. I would rather prefer to have the original colours in the photos
and scan and balance them myself then to have a spoiled image as shown in Franeks second photo with a redish image all over.
You always can balance the original if you have other color images of the subject to compare. Last not least - historical truth counts more to me.

Greetings from the sunny Costa Blanca, Spain
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Old 4th August 2005, 17:28
Primoz Primoz is offline
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Re: Jagdfliegerverbände 9 / I

If you want to correct a color pic you need a busload of additional information - where and when (which time of year, what time of day ...) the photo was taken, otherwise you don't know if the sky is "blue enough" or if the grass is "green enough". You can find many "overcorrected" color photos in various publications. The corrected photo Franek posted may be realistic if it was taken on a sunny afternoon of a cold winter day.
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