Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > The Second World War in General

The Second World War in General Please use this forum to discuss other World War Two related subjects not covered by the main categories.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 19th November 2005, 00:51
Dave Lefurgey Dave Lefurgey is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 23
Dave Lefurgey is on a distinguished road
Re: WWII Clandestine Photo Reconnaissance

Thx Ed, but already have that one. Think I've gotten most of what I can from the internet now, but thanks. Most info is coming by digging through boxes in family basements, the RAF and various "other" agencies my uncle & Cotton worked for. Waiting to hear from thew French and also from the Russian Embassy (if they ever decide to answer, since I used the "s" word for "spy'). Trying to dig out some way of connecting with Sir William Stephenson "Intrepid" records or archives (but that's proving to be difficult), since I wonder if they worked for him at all. They did sorties for Ian Fleming of James Bond fame, and socialized with him. It's been said about many people, but claims are even made that James Bond may be patterned after Cotton. Thx again for your interest. Oh, by the way, just learned about a month ago that someone is nominating my uncle, Bob Niven, to the Canadian Aviation Hall of Fame. That was a surprise.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 19th November 2005, 06:16
edwest edwest is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,612
edwest is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: WWII Clandestine Photo Reconnaissance

Then see this book:

http://www.crossandcockade.com/revie...ney_cotton.htm

And, by all means, contact the Canadian Aviation Hall of Fame:

http://www.cahf.ca/whatsnew.htm


Ed
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 20th November 2005, 07:02
Dave Lefurgey Dave Lefurgey is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 23
Dave Lefurgey is on a distinguished road
Re: WWII Clandestine Photo Reconnaissance

Thanks again, Ed. I have the book 'Last Plane Out of Berlin' by Jeff Watson. He interviewed most of the family over here & I've corresponded with him over the internet. Also did a documentary that didn't impress me as he didn't refer to my uncle by name, but only once as "Cotton's co-pilot". Mind you, I didn't see the first part, so maybe I missed something. So far I've found 22 books give most or some of Cotton & my uncle's experiences, and have copies of all of them. Re: the Cdn Aviation Hall of Fame. Have talked with them and the nominator's have approached me to help with the nomination brief, as I have a lot of info. But thanks anyhow.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 21st November 2005, 00:39
Martin Gleeson Martin Gleeson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 652
Martin Gleeson is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: WWII Clandestine Photo Reconnaissance

Hallo all,

Can anyone tell me if there is a Sidney Cotton archive ? Or where might his logbooks and documents survive, if at all ?

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 21st November 2005, 08:38
Dave Lefurgey Dave Lefurgey is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 23
Dave Lefurgey is on a distinguished road
Re: WWII Clandestine Photo Reconnaissance

Martin: I think the Australian War Museum has some of Cotton's things, but don't know about any of his logbooks. Cotton burned a lot of his documents before he died. Might also try the Royal Air Force's Air Historical Branch. Have had very good dealings with them. Why do you want to know? We have my uncle's log books and other things. I've been doing research on them for several years now and have the benefit of family involvement, including Cotton's daughter Jill (from 2nd marriage) and talking to Pat Martin, who was Cotton's girlfriend at the time. My uncle's wife was Cotton's neice and she & Pat did some spy flights with them. Since my uncle was with Cotton from the start, my uncle's log books would reflect what Cotton was doing. The two were always together in the Lockheed until the RAF took over their unit once war started and they began flying photo recon Spitfires from French airbases.
Dave Lefurgey at e-mail: dwblefurgey@hotmail.com
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 22nd November 2005, 01:13
Martin Gleeson Martin Gleeson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 652
Martin Gleeson is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: WWII Clandestine Photo Reconnaissance

Hallo Dave,

Thanks for your help, especially the leads for the Australian War Museum and the AHB. What a shame he destroyed some of his documents - hopefully this only applied to certain of his murkier postwar adventures.

My interest lies in the July-August 1945 period, around the time he purchased two more Lockheed 12s. I believe he had some business dealings in Ireland at this time but I have no idea what he was doing. Naturally I would like to !

Thanks again. Regards.

Martin Gleeson.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 22nd November 2005, 19:11
Dave Lefurgey Dave Lefurgey is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 23
Dave Lefurgey is on a distinguished road
Re: WWII Clandestine Photo Reconnaissance

Martin: A good book is 'Aviator Extraordinary" by Sidney Cotton as told to Ralph Barker. If you can't find it, use www.abebooks.com website and you can find it. Our libraries use it and has booksellers worldwide. Have used it extensively and found it trustworthy and relaible over several years. There are other books and I've found 22 so far, on this topic. I can provide you with a list if you like. Re: the Irish connection. They didn't have much to do with Ireland until about September 1939 after war began and they escaped Berlin. Ian Fleming (of James Bond fame) with British Admiralty intelligence had Cotton and my uncle fly some photo recon flights along the southern Irish coast to see if there was any U-Boat pen construction going on. There wasn't. They were also to check for any anti-aircraft guns and Cotton said there was one and he knew exactly where it was because he had sold it to the Irish. Have no idea when and haven't found any documentation to say when he sold it though. Most likely Cotton obtained it through his friend, Alfred Miranda of the American Armaments Corporation based in New York City. They were arms merchants and Cotton had business dealings with them on other occasions. In fact, it was Alfred who recommended Cotton for the spy flights to French Intelligence and hence, the British. My interest and research has focused on the time before my uncle went missing on 29/30 May 1942, so have no idea what he was up to in 1945. Maybe the book or the other two places may be able to help. Just had a thought. I can ask Cotton's daughter, Jill, if she has any idea what he was up to in Ireland at that time. She had been sent to school in the USA shortly after the war began and was staying with a very wealthy American named Ben Smith ( I believe he owned a refrigerator manufacturing company) in the New York City area. She didn't see her dad much, as he was always doing business deals and travelling. Will let you know what i find out.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 23rd November 2005, 01:55
Dave Lefurgey Dave Lefurgey is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 23
Dave Lefurgey is on a distinguished road
Re: WWII Clandestine Photo Reconnaissance

Martin: Heard back from Cotton's daughter, Jill. Here is her reply, "I have no idea what he was up to in Ireland. Was it Ireland proper or Northern Ireland? Because I remember flying to Belfast with him in his plane but I was only a teenager then (guessing, but that was likely at the end of or just after WWII). We spent the night with some friends of his who lived just outside the city. Sorry I can't be more helpful - you should have asked me 60 years ago."
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 23rd November 2005, 02:24
Martin Gleeson Martin Gleeson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 652
Martin Gleeson is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: WWII Clandestine Photo Reconnaissance

Hallo again Dave,

Thanks for your help and interest. I only have the most recent book by Jeffrey Watson but this does not really help me. I will try to obtain the Ralph Barker title.

Only recently did I learn of the 1939 Irish overflights. However I believe the story of the single A/A gun to be pure fantasy. In early 1939 the Irish Army had only 10 A/A guns, as far as I know all properly obtained. These were four 3-inch, two 3.7-inch and four Bofors 40mm.

I was just about to reply when I saw your second post with the very prompt reply from his daughter Jill. Please thank her from me.
I refer to what is now the Republic of Ireland; then perhaps it was called Eire, the Irish Free State, Southern Ireland, etc. My friends in Northern Ireland would I am sure be jumping up and down at the idea of us being Ireland 'proper' !
Could you please ask Jill if she recalls ever landing in Dublin and staying overnight there ? The trip to Belfast is clearly (to me) a separate flight.

Regards for now,

Martin Gleeson.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 23rd November 2005, 19:09
Dave Lefurgey Dave Lefurgey is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 23
Dave Lefurgey is on a distinguished road
Re: WWII Clandestine Photo Reconnaissance

Martin: Can't help much with whether it was fantasy or not about Cotton selling Eire a single anti-aircraft gun, as I learned about it from Cotton's biography, 'Aviator Extraordinary'. My interest has been in the photo reconnaissance aspects. All the principals who may have been involved are dead, or are likely so. Re: Cotton's flight to Belast. Jill was quite sure it was there and not antwhere else. It's also possible, and maybe even likely, that Cotton left his daughter with friends in Belfast and did other things. He had done similar things before. This is only a vague memory for her, as she was a teenager at the time. There isn't more to tell, because from past experience with Jill, she tells me all she knows on a particular topic. If there was more she recalled, she would have told me. Sorry we can't clear it up any more for you. You may find other information if you research Ian Fleming, who was with the Director of Naval Intelligence and it was his idea to do the 1939 flights. Churchill was 1st Lord of the Admiralty at the time and was endorsing an Admiralty take over of their photo recon spy unit. It aroused hackles in the RAF and there was a bit of a political battle between the RAF & the Admiralty at the time. The Irish flights were also a ploy by Fleming to 'get a foot in the door', or take over the photo recon unit. Some info is in Cotton's biography and Fred Winterbotham talks about it a bit in his books entitled "Secret and Personal" and "The Nazi Connection". Can find them on the Abe Books website, too. If I come across anything in my research I'll let you know. Do you have an e-mail address you're willing to give me in case I find something? I believe I sent you mine in one of these forum messages. Let me know what you find out in your research. I'd be interested. Are you writing a book or perhaps doing other research?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wartime colour (Kodachrome) photo of a VVS Yak-9 Kari Lumppio Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 26th July 2010 16:16
9. Staffel/Jagdgeschwader 26 Photo Book is Out Larry Hickey Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 8th August 2005 18:16
Interesting facts on paper quality (hint for a certain publisher) Jukka Juutinen Books and Magazines 27 13th June 2005 01:43
Hungarian Fw 190 ? (E-Bay photo) Kari Lumppio Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 3 26th April 2005 22:40
F/O John Greer Boyle, KIA 41 Sqn 28.9.40 - photo needed Geoff Kennell Allied and Soviet Air Forces 0 28th January 2005 16:55


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 15:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net