Help Interpreting Mission Report

[aldodog]

Gentlemen,

I've got the summary report for the 364th FG's mission on 15 Aug 44 and have a couple questions.

1. The mission is described as "Target and withdrawl support 2nd Force FO 516 VIII FC". Can anybody decypher "2nd Force FO 516 VII FC"?

2. During an engagement with German a/c, the 384th FS "Called Balance Two-Two and Two-Three on “C” channel when bomber formations were attacked, but no response." Does anybody know what group/station used callsign "Balance"? In the book "The Wrong Stuff" by Truman Smith, the author refers to a P-38 squad with that callsign, but I can't find any other reference.

3. The abbreviation "B/F" is used throughout the report (eg. "The 384th chased them through the B/F to ...") I assume this means "bomber formation".

Thanks ahead for any enlightenment,

Keith

[Revi16]

2nd Force FO 516 VIII FC = 2nd Force, Fighter Operation 516, VIII (8th) Fighter Command?

Mike

[Bruce Dennis]

B/F = Bomber Force, or Bomber Flight

Bruce

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by aldodog

Gentlemen,

I've got the summary report for the 364th FG's mission on 15 Aug 44 and have a couple questions.

1. The mission is described as "Target and withdrawl support 2nd Force FO 516 VIII FC". Can anybody decypher "2nd Force FO 516 VII FC"?

Probably 2nd Task Force which means it was the Bomb Division trailing the First Task Force in the bomber stream. The 1st, 2nd and 3rd BD rotated positions. On this particular day the 2nd BD was the Second Task Force. The 3rd Bomb Dision was split and formed the Third and Fourth Task Forces. The FO 516 refers to Field Order 516 8th Air Force Fighter Command - which in turn details all the bomber and fighter group assignments, route, times and place in the bomber stream.

2. During an engagement with German a/c, the 384th FS "Called Balance Two-Two and Two-Three on “C” channel when bomber formations were attacked, but no response." Does anybody know what group/station used callsign "Balance"? In the book "The Wrong Stuff" by Truman Smith, the author refers to a P-38 squad with that callsign, but I can't find any other reference.

More likely Balance 2-2 and 2-3 were combat wings (2nd and 3rd in formation) within 2nd Task Force that 364FG was assigned to cover.

3. The abbreviation "B/F" is used throughout the report (eg. "The 384th chased them through the B/F to ...") I assume this means "bomber formation".

Bomber Force

Thanks ahead for any enlightenment,

Keith

The 2nd Task Force comprised of the 2nd Bomb Division B-24's attacked airfields ranging from Plantlunne to Vechta. The 364th was assigned to R/V at the Target area and then escort their bombers on Withdrawal. For example the 355th was assigned Penetration and Target support to Vechta so it is likely that 364th took over escort and covered the lead wings in the 2nd Task Force.

The 364th was awarded 10-0-1 ( 9 Me 109s and 1 Fw 190) in the general are from Mannheim to Weihaden to Frankfurt area

I could not find Call Sign "Balance" for any Airfield, Bomb Division, Bomb or Fighter Wing, Bomb or Fighter Group or Bomb or Fighter Squadron

[aldodog]

Thanks fellas.

Not sure I follow the task force/bomb division discussion though.

I've been under the assumption that the 364th was supporting 1st AD B-17s (92nd, 303rd, and 306th BGs) that were targeting airfields near Frankfurt. The 303rd was attacked by Jg300 and Jg3 Fw-190s west of Frankfurt about the same time the 364FG was engaging the Jg300 Bf-109s over Frankfurt and Mannheim. I hadn't thought to check on B-24 groups operating in the same area (more for my "to do" list).

I did find reference to callsign "Balance" on a 303rd BG pilot's flimsy from early 1945. "Balance" was listed as fighter support, so maybe it was some kind of generic callsign used when fighters were on escort duty?

Thanks again for the help,

Keith

[drgondog]

You can't assume that Freeman is correct but he has the Task Force order for 15 August as:
1TF ---> 1st BD (B-17) attacking Wiesbaden to Frankfurt to Koln area targets, followed by 2TF ----> 2nd BD (B-24)attacking Plantlunne/Vechta area airfields, followed by 3TF -----> part of 3rd BD followed by 4TF ----> part of 3rd BD.

There is no way of telling if: 361st assigned to 1TF B-17s but

1st TF late and 2nd TF took lead but 364th at the RV point picked up the 'trailing' (now) B-17s.

It is clear that 1st BD did in fact bomb Frankfurt area airfields. What is not clear based on the reference to "2-2" and "2-3" was whether or not the original 2TF (and coincidentally 2nd BD) took the lead, but the 364th managed to sort it out and remain with the 1BD now trailing 2nd BD?

Task Forces versus Bomb Divisions were tactical gatherings of different Bomb Wings and Groups within a Division, organized with specific assignments for those Bomb Wings and Bomb Groups, then placed at the Lead, Middle or Trail of the Bomber Stream.

Whoever (1st or 2nd or 3rd Bomb Division) was in lead became First Task Force and this assembly of bombers frequently split away at some map coordinate and attacked a separate target area. The First Task Force could be the 2nd BD B-24s leading the 8th AF that day.

Whoever was next ( say 3rd BD) who once was just behind the First Task Force is now in the lead with the 3rd Task Force behind them, and maybe the 4TF in trail if a 4TF was created for this day.

You could mix and match different bomb groups within a Combat Wing by splitting them up with one squadron augmenting another Group, and having the three other squadrons next in line to augment still another Group behind the first one..

But you Never spilt a B-24 group and attach it to another B-17 Wing because of the dissimilar speeds and performance at higher altitudes.

[aldodog]

Thanks for the clarification drgondog.

Seems the 364th must have been assigned 1st BD B-17s (TF-2?) and was in the correct location. 1st BD was the only force operating in southern Germany. 2nd BD targets were all in northern Germany, ~165 to 240 miles north of Frankfurt. 3rd BD targeted airfields in the Netherlands, also well to the north. Maybe Freeman is wrong.

I have the 1st BD track plotted on Google Earth and they broke due south immediatly after crossing the Dutch coast. Seems that would have been the point that 2nd and 3rd BDs broke to the northeast or continued east to hit their respective targets.

The 364th arrived vicinity Frankfurt at 1036 to sweep the area. The 303rd arrived about 1045 and made a big loop around the city before dropping on Weisbaden at 1122. What I don't know is the order of the different BGs (92nd, 303rd, and 306th); a German source has this bomber stream stretching some 18 miles. I suspect the 303rd was last in line.

Cheers,

Keith

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by aldodog

Thanks for the clarification drgondog.

Seems the 364th must have been assigned 1st BD B-17s (TF-2?) and was in the correct location. 1st BD was the only force operating in southern Germany. 2nd BD targets were all in northern Germany, ~165 to 240 miles north of Frankfurt. 3rd BD targeted airfields in the Netherlands, also well to the north. Maybe Freeman is wrong.

I have the 1st BD track plotted on Google Earth and they broke due south immediatly after crossing the Dutch coast. Seems that would have been the point that 2nd and 3rd BDs broke to the northeast or continued east to hit their respective targets.

The 364th arrived vicinity Frankfurt at 1036 to sweep the area. The 303rd arrived about 1045 and made a big loop around the city before dropping on Weisbaden at 1122. What I don't know is the order of the different BGs (92nd, 303rd, and 306th); a German source has this bomber stream stretching some 18 miles. I suspect the 303rd was last in line.

If you can get a Mission Summary for either 40 Combat Wing, or 1st AD or 8th AF one of those should be enough to get the BG order within the Wing.

Cheers,

Keith

Keith the only way to dig deeper (reliably) is to get your hands on either the 8thAF Mission Summary Report (for all Wings and Groups) or the 3rd BD Mission Summary Report. Both should define the Bomb Wing within Bomb Division within the Task Force - and the order of the Task Forces.

It is clear to me that "2-2 and 2-3" (second and third 'boxes' in 2nd Task Force) could easily refer to 1st BD in this case. If the three Task Forces split on the Dutch Coast, the 2nd BD could have been in the lead at that point, then the 1st (presumably next in line) proceeds to the R/V point for the 364th (and probably had several P-47 Groups as Penetration Escort). It may not have happened that way but that is plausible.

Further - if 364th was out in front on a Sweep it is likely that they got a call for help from those two 'boxes' and went to the rescue... passing the lead CW to hit the LW.