Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

[Steve Coates]

The NVMs represent a partial solution, albeit a decent percentage of the missing losses. The good news is that since responsibility for WASt was passed from the Berlin authorities to the BA in January 2019, there has been a relaxation in the interpretation of Datenschutz. Access is slowly opening up but it does seem to occur in increments. I have also heard from a contact that WAST (now known as the BA-PA - Abteilung Personenbezogene Auskünfte) will start a process of scanning the NVMs but accessibility is at the moment unclear. Ideally, within the next few years it will be possible to see genuine progress.

[John Vasco]

Thanks for that update, Steve. Interesting.

[Larry deZeng]

...............fortunately, we have Matti Salonen who has so generously and graciously stepped in to fill the 1944 gap.

L.

[Franek Grabowski]

I would suggest another thread on German losses and related paperwork, not only 1944.

[rof120]

1944 German losses are far from being my main concern or field of research but of course I have great sympathy for the mourners and I, too, strongly wish that these documents could be found at last. As you know there were numerous huge air battles 1944, in which often hundreds of German fighters were involved (up to 500 I think), not to mention Allied fighters, mainly "Mustangs" in any numbers up to 1,000 for some missions. Such numbers make it even more frustrating not to have the corresponding German documents.

First a remark: as most of you know official documents, especially those documents of this kind here, originally did not exist in one single "copy" but rather in fairly numerous copies which were kept by or sent to various departments like a JG, the Jafü, Jagddivisionen, RLM etc. Who knows how many copies were made normally about losses? Perhaps Mr. Prien?

I guess (only a guess) original loss lists drawn up by JGs were typed with at least 6 (six) copies plus the original, totalling seven. So it would not be unreasonable to expect that at least one copy, possibly several ones, have survived to this day. Obviously the big question is: where are they now? That's what it's all about. Some, possibly odd and unexpected, archives, especially in the USA and in Russia - mainly in Russia I think - would be a good start. I admit I have no experience at all with US or Russian archives. I suspect that, especially in Russia, there could be a certain amount of documents which never were classified or put in good order (yet). Soviet forces seized huge amounts of paper 1945 in Germany, mainly in Berlin. Perhaps it's just a matter of patience and the Holy Graal (1944 loss lists) will reappear some day, probably in Moscow. On the other hand they could be anywhere in the world including in Germany, Argentina or New Zealand.

Remember that years ago already Russia sent back to France the French documents (mainly about the 1940 fighting) seized by the Germans occupying France, then (1945) by Soviet forces in Germany. This example is encouraging.

SUGGESTION: why not publish some kind of announcements in daily newspapers (ordinary papers like the Daily Telegraph, Ouest France, the Washington Post and lesser, local papers), if possible free of charge because their text would make interesting reading to most people. Instead of ads some articles explaining the problem could be published by dailies and of course by aviation reviews and magazines. I think ordinary papers, not particularly aviation magazines, would be more interesting because aviation enthusiasts are fairly well informed already. Some precious documents could be detained by fully ordinary people like you and me (but no airpower enthusiasts) including Army veterans and their children and grandchildren.

If it proves necessary to pay for ads in the press why not? Of course you need some money to do that. For lack of time I have no possibility of dealing with this but I am prepared to contribute as much as $ 100 (I'm mot a rich man) if for example some TOCH "super moderator(s)" decide(s) to work on this and create a dedicated bank account. I think financial contributions by as many TOCH-members as possible could finance this project easily.

Well, what do you think?

[Steve Coates]

I've been trying to use some of my current downtime reasonably productively and have worked back through some of my old Kew files. A very small piece of this particular puzzle has surfaced in AIR 40/1477 which interestingly enough intimates that the buried 6th Abteilung records were subject to a degree of interference before coming into American custody. I've attached a copy of the note and won't indulge in any further speculation as that would only be unhelpful.

[Larry deZeng]

Since further comments will not be tolerated, I will simply say, OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

L.

[Steve Coates]

Larry

It's certainly an intriguing snippet - regrettably not a lot more as we have no idea as to what might have been taken. Apologies if I came across as overly draconian. I am merely trying to present evidence as I find it and to avoid the thread being derailed. I don't know if anyone else out there has something based upon firm evidence which can be added to what I've been able to find, but if they do, then I'd love to see it.

[aquarya]

Originally Posted by Steve Coates

The NVMs represent a partial solution, albeit a decent percentage of the missing losses. The good news is that since responsibility for WASt was passed from the Berlin authorities to the BA in January 2019, there has been a relaxation in the interpretation of Datenschutz. Access is slowly opening up but it does seem to occur in increments. I have also heard from a contact that WAST (now known as the BA-PA - Abteilung Personenbezogene Auskünfte) will start a process of scanning the NVMs but accessibility is at the moment unclear. Ideally, within the next few years it will be possible to see genuine progress.

I was lucky to be able to visit the WASt reading room early this year, bringing a WWII veteran to view his files, but also files necessary to my research on topics other than his. It took about six months to be able to set up the visit, the process was slow and took much polite persistence. The archivists were kind and attentive while we were there. However, not all files were brought for viewing, even though they fell well outside of Datenschutz timeframes and/or involved the veteran himself, and getting copies of the files we viewed became tangled quickly along not having a system in place to accept payment yet. Some progress, but this is definitely a resource that clearly would have much to offer if access were granted in a manner similar to Freiburg or other Bundesarchive.

[Steve Coates]

Thanks. I have heard of a similar experience from a friend. It's a real shame the veteran couldn't be fully accomodated.

I think they will get there but it's going to take some time to fully 'integrate'.