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  #11  
Old 31st August 2006, 11:29
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fran fran is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

What would be these two Antons? Could be 6-2 one of them?


Quote:
Originally Posted by olefebvre
AFAIK there were just a couple of Antons delivered to the Condor legion.
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  #12  
Old 31st August 2006, 16:52
lritger lritger is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Fran, you'll note I was careful not to phrase it as "gospel" in the book! I know too well the risks of stating something absolute in the absence of definitive proof (and sometimes, even when you DO have the proof, you still get called out on it). All of the evidence I list in the book for this conclusion is what legal experts would call "circumstantial", but I do feel that taken together, it forms a good basis for a "reasonable conclusion".

And I will be the first one to offer congratulations to anyone who can offer concrete proof one way or the other, helping us definitively resolve the Spanish 109 situation.

Cheers,

Lynn
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  #13  
Old 31st August 2006, 17:33
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Hohentwiel Hohentwiel is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Hi,

as I understand right, are the first 16 Bf 109 maybe V versions, A or B,
is this right? All 16 a/c had originally the old wooden 2-blades.
When was the modification with new VDM 2-blades? Do we have some
documents here? Is it possible that some of the first Bf 109 flew with old
codes and maybe with old wooden 2-blades until spring 1938?
Do we know the fate e.g. losses of these first Bf 109?

Regards,
Sven.
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  #14  
Old 31st August 2006, 19:39
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Yes you are right, Lynn
I not regretted buying the book anyway; one always learn something.
The lacking of official archive just leave place to speculations analizing photos. That's all we can do...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lritger
Fran, you'll note I was careful not to phrase it as "gospel" in the book! I know too well the risks of stating something absolute in the absence of definitive proof (and sometimes, even when you DO have the proof, you still get called out on it). All of the evidence I list in the book for this conclusion is what legal experts would call "circumstantial", but I do feel that taken together, it forms a good basis for a "reasonable conclusion".

And I will be the first one to offer congratulations to anyone who can offer concrete proof one way or the other, helping us definitively resolve the Spanish 109 situation.

Cheers,

Lynn
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  #15  
Old 31st August 2006, 23:47
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Quote:
There was never a "Bf 109B-2"... no period documentation refers to any variant except the B-1.
Well, actually there were only 109 Bs in the various Mtt handbooks on the a/c.
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  #16  
Old 1st September 2006, 22:08
Many Souffan Many Souffan is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Hello Lynn.

Firstly, I would like to tell you that I enjoyed your book. I think I was one of the first to buy it the last year at Telford, I was there at the stand of TMA ( Airmagazine, Ciel de guerre, Hsairmag & Les Ailes françaises. )

At the end of my reading of your book I learnt many things, but it was for me like not enough thing, maybe too synthetic. At last I must say BRAVO ! for your work


Just a couple of corrections to Many's helpful post:
Thank you

- There was never a "Bf 109B-2"... no period documentation refers to any variant except the B-1.

As historian, you are, Please never say: There was never a "Bf 109B-2, till today maybe there was never a “Bf 109B-2”, but if you wait 2 or 3 years more, I am going to publish first a special issue about the Slovak 109, and after I will publish a special issue about all 109 used by Germans in Spain and maybe, You will be very surprised. For the others they will the proof that the 6.5 was the first mount of Lützow

- The wooden props were produced by Schwarz (sp?), and were used because the variable pitch props were not ready in time. Photos of Polenz' captured 6-15 show that the instrument panel was set up to have the pitch change mechanism, but it was of course not fitted as the aircraft still carried the wooden prop when captured.

This wooden prop produced by Schwarz was in fact at the beginning an English licence (De Havilland). Don’t forget The wooden two blades Watts on the first Spitfire and the first Hurricane. It was the same period

- The first batch of aircraft to arrive were Bf 109As... they *may* have been coded as high as 6-18, there is still some confusion on the 6-17 and 6-18. (If we could find delivery confirmations in Spanish archives, that would be fantastic...)

Forgetting the question of the type A or B, The first Batch go to 6-1 to 6-16 That all.For me there is no confusion the first of the second batch was 6.17. You have many different photos of the 6.17 with the evident German Camo 70/71, for myself I have 3 but I don’t have any photo of 6.18 and I will be the first surprised to see one, But I believe in tomorrow, and I hope to see one day a photo of this 6.18.

- Presuming 6-17 and 6-18 were A models, there were 26 B-1s delivered to Spain, coded 6-19 through 6-45; five C's, from 6-46 to 6-50; and 35 D-1s, coded 6-51 through 6-86.
My dear Lynn you follow the excellent work of my close friend Patrick Laureau, but even it is a very, very good work, I am not sure it is the truth.

For example in the special issue n° 5 Avions: les Messerschmitt espagnols of the famous historian Juan Arraez Cerda, you see Page 16 & 17 some photographs of 6.60 of Schob ( and I have seen the originals this 109 is for me a “ C “. The well known foto of the plane of Walter Oesau is for most people a B but there is another photo where you see in close up the cowling of the same plane and it is evident in this foto we are in front of a “D”. So the way is long, long to understand where is the truth... It is the charm of reseaches...

Thank you
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  #17  
Old 2nd September 2006, 02:19
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George Hopp George Hopp is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Quote:
As historian, you are, Please never say: There was never a "Bf 109B-2, till today maybe there was never a “Bf 109B-2”, but if you wait 2 or 3 years more, ....
Well, actually the comment concerns the Mtt documentation on the 109B. And, I can confirm that no Mtt documentation that I have seen has mentioned anything but the Bf 109B. This includes the manual that mentions both the Schwarz and VDM propeller versions.
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  #18  
Old 2nd September 2006, 13:39
olefebvre olefebvre is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Having a quick look at my notes Bertas serials ran in the high 50s up to 6o56 for sure, from then on there was a mixture of both C and D. And frankly from my studies i doubt they the C and D were given separate serial blocks.

As far as the B-2 or B-1 goes i haven't seen B-2 being mentionned on official papers so far. Maybe it was used at the unit level by the mechanics to distinguish between the two variants, but neither the RLM nor Mtt seem to have used such a terminology.
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  #19  
Old 2nd September 2006, 16:43
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Hohentwiel Hohentwiel is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

I guess I'll get no more satisfying reply to my questions.

Thanks to all.
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  #20  
Old 5th September 2006, 17:31
lritger lritger is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Many, thanks for your kind words, and I appreciate you sharing your information... you are of course right, "never" is a strong word when dealing with such a topic as the 109. I had heard that the Schwarz props might have been license produced, but was not certain... your info seems to confirm this, so thanks for that. As regards the C models, yes, I based that on not just Laureau's info, but that of Mombeek as well- truly, the only way to identify a C model in photos is if the cowling is off, so unless a delivery record, further photos, or a logbook showing C model codes is found, it seems we only have educated opinions to go on. The whole affair with the early 109s in Spain is quite maddening to me, as there is so much uncertainty surrounding so few aircraft... the one thing of which I am absolutely certain is that my work is not the last word on the topic! I wanted to at least present a fresh look at these aircraft based on photos and what I considered reliable sources... if it helps foster further research and we uncover the "real" story, I will be very glad indeed.

Thanks again-

Lynn
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