Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 20th August 2005, 08:24
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA
Posts: 2,979
Larry Hickey
Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Marius,

English language sources have cited six confirmed victories by Bf 110s of I./ZG 1 during the Polish Campaign. Three of these have been documented as: 6.9.40 Oblt. Walter Ehle 3./ZG 1 at 5:15 hrs (PZL 11); 7.9.40 Oblt. Victor Mölders at 16:10 hrs (PZL 37); and 7.9.40 Oblt. Ehle at 16:10 hrs (PZL 37). In addition, it is reported that Lt. Wilhelm Spies achieved two victories on unknown dates during the Polish Campaign, possibly with I./ZG 1, although his membership in that unit is uncertain. He may have been serving with I.(S)/LG 1 at that time, although I don't find them listed under that unit. A post on this board by Dean Wick some time ago said one of Spies' victories may have been on 17.9.39, but the accuracy of this is unknown to me. If Spies was in I./ZG 1, and he scored two victories, and the dates and circumstances of these can be documented, that leaves one unknown victory for I./ZG 1 to be documented during the Polish Campaign, if six is an accurate number for the unit's "confirmed" victories.

Your comments?
__________________
Larry Hickey
Eagles Over Europe Project Coordinator
http://airwar-worldwar2.com
  #12  
Old 20th August 2005, 08:37
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA
Posts: 2,979
Larry Hickey
Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Marius,

I should have looked in the victory listing on P.207 of your history, Vol.1, as it there states that Lt. Wilhelm Spies of I./ZG 1, was awarded two victories during the Polish Campaign. However, I don't think that the details are provided within the text, nor is his Staffel identified. Do you now have that information? This summary also only accounts for five victory awards for pilots of ZG 1. Was there a six victory claim confirmed? By whom?

Thanks,
__________________
Larry Hickey
Eagles Over Europe Project Coordinator
http://airwar-worldwar2.com
  #13  
Old 20th August 2005, 18:46
Marius Marius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 284
Marius is on a distinguished road
Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Hello Larry,
I./ZG 1 seem to make biggest problems. So here are the last news;

1.9.1939
I suppose 1 P.24 claim over Warsaw (perhaps "probably"), because Luftflotte 1 documents are speaking about 16 claims at all. I have found 15, so the ZG 1 claim could be the 16th. The Polish aircraft could be a P.11 of 113 eskadra (write off).
4.9.1939
In my book "Jagdflieger" you will find a P.43 claim, but perhaps it even wasn`t reported by the pilot. I think it was a Bf 110 of ZG 1 because of the serious damage to the Polish plane (P.23 of 42 eskadra) and the area of the encounter.
5.9.1939
About 13:30 hours escort sortie to Warsaw area for Ju 87 of IV.(St)/LG 1. I suppose 2 P.24 claims (112 eskadra lost here 2 P.11 and one more P.11 to Do 17M bombers of 3./KG 2).
The German documents are speaking about 20 claims for the day. I have found 18, so both claims could be numbers 19th and 20th.
6.9.1939
Olt.Ehle P.24 at 5:15 (111 eskadra 1 P.11 write off).
7.9.1939
3 P.37 of 16 eskadra shot down at 16:10. Olt. Ehle and Olt. Mölders, the third name unknown (Spies?).

In my book I wrote about an P.24 claim on 17.9.1939. In fact the Polish plane (P.11 of 132 eskadra) should have been fallen to a Do 17 crew of II./KG 3.

I am sure for 98% Lt. Spies was flying with I./ZG 1. If you have read Eimannsberger`s book for example, there is no trace of this pilot with I.(Z)/LG 1.
I am sure I./ZG 1 claimed 7 victories at all, but one of them probable. It is known that Bf 110 crews claimed in Poland 68 victories at all; I./ZG 76 - 31, I.(Z)/LG 1: 30, so there remain 7 for I./ZG 1.
The Gruppenkommandeur reported later about 6 victories over Poland, but I think he only meant the confirmed victories.

So, following claimes at the moment:
1.9. 1 P.24 probable
5.9. 2 P.24
6.9. 1 P.24 (Ehle)
7.9. 3 P.37 (Ehle,Mölders,Spies?)

I hope I have helped with my explanations. Perhaps someone could add more information?
I am still looking for log books of I./ZG 1. Can somebody help me?

Marius
  #14  
Old 20th August 2005, 19:29
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA
Posts: 2,979
Larry Hickey
Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Marius,

Thank you for the presenting the current status of your research into the claims of I./ZG 1 during the Polish Campaign. I agree that Spies almost certainly must have been flying with that unit during the PC. He certainly doesn't appear in the I.(S)/LG 1 information published by Ludwig von Eimannsberger. It seems strange that Spies' updated Knight's Cross bio in Obermeier doesn't make clear the unit he served with during the PC.

I've requested the missing information on I./ZG 1 victories during the FC on this TOCH board previously, but so far no one seems to know the answer. The history of I./ZG 1, in general, during 39-40, doesn't seem to be very well documented in surviving Luftwaffe records. I, too, would appreciate information on any logbooks from members of that unit, as well as info on any existing historical records on the unit during that period. I think John Vasco did about as good a job as was then possible telling ZG 1's history during 1940 in his Bf-110 book on the subject. There must still be more out there somewhere, however.
__________________
Larry Hickey
Eagles Over Europe Project Coordinator
http://airwar-worldwar2.com
  #15  
Old 20th August 2005, 19:54
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA
Posts: 2,979
Larry Hickey
Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Marius,

One more question that I forgot to put to you in my previous post. Do you have a prospective date for the publication of Vol. 3 of your PC history series on Schlacht and Stuka units?

The updated info on Vol. 1 (fighters) in your recently published Vol. 2 (bombers), is much appreciated, along with the very helpful maps. Your lastest bomber volume is excellent, and I recommend both volumes to all interested readers of this board who can work with the Polish language. Even if you can't read Polish, the photos and data tables alone are well worth the modest price of the books.

For board readers interested in the Luftwaffe during the Polish Campaign, Marius is also doing a series of articles on that subject, beginning with September 1st, for the Polish aviation magazine "Militaria"(www.kagero.pl). The text is in Polish, the photo captions are in both English and Polish, and there is a one-paragraph summary of the article in English at the end. These articles are also excellent soures of information, and again, even if you can't read Polish, the data tables alone are worth the price of the magazine. It caused me to order a subscription, since it appears that this will be an ongoing series for many issues to come!

Thanks Marius!!!
__________________
Larry Hickey
Eagles Over Europe Project Coordinator
http://airwar-worldwar2.com
  #16  
Old 20th August 2005, 21:07
Marius Marius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 284
Marius is on a distinguished road
Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Larry,
many thanks for your reply.
I was looking for documents in our Bundesarchiv in Freiburg for several years. I think I saw all documents about the Luftwaffe in Poland presented there. So the question is what could we find outside Germany?
As I heard before some years many documents are closed in England for 65 years (?Stuka KTB`s?). What about United States? I think there is more to find in Russia, because the Russians stealed from East German territory everything that looked similar to a book.

My third book shall come out appr. in December 2005, but it lies on the publishers possibilities. There is still a lot to translate into Polish. I am writing the books in Polish, but the personal accounts etc. and experiences of the units are translated by someone other in Poland.

Yes, I am writing for "Militaria XX wieku " magazine. But also I have written a couple of articles for "Lotnictwo Wojskowe" (now "Lotnictwo"). After my last article for Lotnictwo magazine (fighter unit III/4) there were many turbulences in Poland, because I openly wrote about some manipulations made by Polish autors and fighter pilots as well (Skalski, Pniak). Some people say I am anti polish (!?), or that I have ignored Polish sources, but it isn`t true. I think these people are very disappointed and don`t want accept German archive records, which are more reliable than Polish.

Marius
  #17  
Old 21st August 2005, 02:27
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 2,038
Franek Grabowski
Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius
Yes, I am writing for "Militaria XX wieku " magazine. But also I have written a couple of articles for "Lotnictwo Wojskowe" (now "Lotnictwo"). After my last article for Lotnictwo magazine (fighter unit III/4) there were many turbulences in Poland, because I openly wrote about some manipulations made by Polish autors and fighter pilots as well (Skalski, Pniak). Some people say I am anti polish (!?), or that I have ignored Polish sources, but it isn`t true. I think these people are very disappointed and don`t want accept German archive records, which are more reliable than Polish.
Here we come to the key of the problem. You openly accused the late Stanisław Skalski of making a false claim after arrival to the UK and that Polish authors support this lie. You have written that, ignoring available Polish documents like actual combat reports, diary of the unit, daily reports, etc., all filed during the September 1939. Whenever Polish documents do not fit your research, you call them unreliable. For you even a German propaganda booklet has more value than Polish accounts. Actually, judging by your bibliography, Polish documents are much more complete rather than German ones, despite serious losses during evacuation.
Another important note is that it is not the 'revised' result of air combats taht causes most controversies but your comments, shortly claiming that the Polish pilots were poorly trained cowards and murderers.

Quote:
Cynk`s book has many errors concerning the Luftwaffe details (I mean the Polish campaign). He stated about 100 destroyed German planes by Polish fighters, but after appr. 15 years of my research I actually can confirm only 40-45 (destroyed 60-100%). Cynk only operated with the GQM loss list and for example did not researched for hours of German operations or even places were the planes crashed. For example he stated about a He 111 lost in the Kutno area as a claim for 123 squadron over Warsaw (!!).
Jim is reffering to the PAF history published by Schiffer, an another book. Paraphrasing your own words, the books title is: Polish fighter arm in the September battle. The German data is attached to add some background to the history of operations of the Polish fighters. Bulk of the text is an extremally detailed day by day history of operations. Extensive quotes of many documents causes the book may be used as a document source. Slightly more expensive than the Luftwaffe but a great value for money. Highly recommended.
Number of actual German losses I consider disputable. Cynk just only revised Polish claims, sorting them out, according to available documents. Several observed victories are not confirmed by the German documents despite some evidence, like the case of a bomber aircraft claimed by III/4 DM on 2 September. A parachute was observed but no losses were recorded, at least according to your research.

There is also another important and valid point for this thread. According to the period Polish documents, III/4 DM fought on 4 September with two engined aircraft. Descriptions suggest they were Me 110s and likely they scored at least one kill. Mr Emmerling did not find any involved German unit, thus suggested the Poles invented the combat with such aircraft. Sorry, it is ridiculous!

PS This discussion may look a little bit weird but it is strictly related to the article on III/4 DM and the following discussion that was published in Poland.

Last edited by Franek Grabowski; 21st August 2005 at 02:33.
  #18  
Old 21st August 2005, 10:36
Marius Marius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 284
Marius is on a distinguished road
Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Franek,
in the origin combat report Skalski mentioned about one aircraft he shot at and then saw it crash on the ground. The second crash (of a second plane) was added in next report 1941 (!!). If you have found the second crash in original Polish documents from September 1939 so please tell me where you did.

German propaganda booklet isn`t more important. I used such sources only then if they agreed with original German documents, that`s all. I sorted out books with propaganda only. You know that, because I wrote about this point in my book.
Perhaps you will find more Polish documents (perhaps, have you seen German documents?), but most of them were created even years after the campaign. As you confirm original Polish documents were lost during evacuation so what are you talking about?

Next point:
Where did I write that Polish pilots were poorly trained cowards and murderes? Could you give an example with page number etc. from by books?

Yes I know what book Jim is speaking about. In this book too Cynk maintains Polish fighters destroyed 100 German aircraft (Cynk does not mean "claims", but lost aircraft by the Germans - that`s a big difference!). But concerning "paraphrasing", it makes a big difference when you are writing about losses you can find in many sources (even books). Cynk couldn`t do that, because there exist no books on this topic (I mean Luftwaffe in Poland comparable to my books). I used all Polish publications since 1947. My intention was to fill the German action with known Polish details. On the other hand it wasn`t my intention to describe Polish action and then fill it with German details... If I understand you correctly, you mean that all Polish autors are liars and I should visit the Sikorski Institute to verify what they wrote?!

On 2 September a parachute was observed and that is right. The only pilot who parachuted was Ofw. Weng of Müllenheim-Rehberg`s aircraft (I./ZG 1).
There is no evidence of other German aircraft lost in this battle. Not in archives, not in personal losses, nowhere. And where are the other observerd victories and where is the evidence for that? Please give me more details.

Concerning the 4 September battle; isn`t Pniak the only one who reported something about 2-engined aircraft? Isn`t true that on 2.9. the pilots of III/4 recognized the Bf 110`s as Dornier Do 17? Isn`t true that on 4.9. they recognized the Bf 109 as Bf 110? Other pilots for example of III/2 took Ju 87 for Do 17!
Lesniewski couldn`t have claimed a Bf 110 on 4.9., because two days earlier he recognized this type as Do 17? You can be sure he would claim a Do 17 again!
Will you say Do 17 and Bf 110 were the same aircraft? I think Lesniewski saw the differences of aircraft he shot at 2.9. and 4.9. very well, but he couldn`t attach the right type, as most Polish fighter pilots at that time.
So isn`t true that Polish pilots couldn`t recognize German types?

The German documents are very reliable; they confirm that on 2.9. I./ZG 1 was engaged. And they confirm that on 4.9. I.(J)/LG 2 was involved. Will you deny these facts? And my last question: what is here ridiculous?! These are very reliable informations.

Something more to Pniak. He saw his victims crash on ground!!. The first time on 2.9. and the second time on 4.9. As I researched and wrote in my books and articles this can`t be true. I am most convinced this could be a "black sheep" in the family of fighter pilots.
Franek, you think all Polish accounts even written many years after are only facts, are you sure? You mean (for patriotic purposes?) there can`t be a black sheep in the family, but you are wrong.

Marius
  #19  
Old 21st August 2005, 14:48
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 2,038
Franek Grabowski
Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Marius

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius
in the origin combat report Skalski mentioned about one aircraft he shot at and then saw it crash on the ground. The second crash (of a second plane) was added in next report 1941 (!!). If you have found the second crash in original Polish documents from September 1939 so please tell me where you did.
You have not seen the original report, have you? Skalski's report, written in haste, lacks a very important sentence - fate of the enemy aircraft, either it crashed or not. There are more period documents confirming that Skalski was credited with two kills, so the second kill must have been reported to crash. It is not my problem that you cannot understand that.

Quote:
German propaganda booklet isn`t more important. I used such sources only then if they agreed with original German documents, that`s all. I sorted out books with propaganda only. You know that, because I wrote about this point in my book.
I was clear - you consider German propaganda more valuable than Polish documents.

Quote:
Perhaps you will find more Polish documents (perhaps, have you seen German documents?), but most of them were created even years after the campaign. As you confirm original Polish documents were lost during evacuation so what are you talking about?
I am curious how you came to such a conclusion having not researched Polish archives? There is a number of original 1939 Polish documents and diaries, this suplemented by hundreds of reports which were written following arrival to France. There is plenty to choose.

Quote:
Next point:
Where did I write that Polish pilots were poorly trained cowards and murderes? Could you give an example with page number etc. from by books?
Have not you read your own articles and books?!

Quote:
Yes I know what book Jim is speaking about. In this book too Cynk maintains Polish fighters destroyed 100 German aircraft (Cynk does not mean "claims", but lost aircraft by the Germans - that`s a big difference!). But concerning "paraphrasing", it makes a big difference when you are writing about losses you can find in many sources (even books). Cynk couldn`t do that, because there exist no books on this topic (I mean Luftwaffe in Poland comparable to my books). I used all Polish publications since 1947. My intention was to fill the German action with known Polish details. On the other hand it wasn`t my intention to describe Polish action and then fill it with German details... If I understand you correctly, you mean that all Polish autors are liars and I should visit the Sikorski Institute to verify what they wrote?!
That is another point. You have used everything written since 1947. Actually Polish archives were practically unavailable for the Polish authors up until 1990s. How do you expect the books to be completelly reliable?

Quote:
On 2 September a parachute was observed and that is right. The only pilot who parachuted was Ofw. Weng of Müllenheim-Rehberg`s aircraft (I./ZG 1).
I asked you in vain, what is the evidence Weng ever parachuted? How can you be so sure, if in the same article you claim that you cannot verify losses of KG3?

Quote:
There is no evidence of other German aircraft lost in this battle. Not in archives, not in personal losses, nowhere. And where are the other observerd victories and where is the evidence for that? Please give me more details.
I wrote it clear. One of the airmen of the bomber aircraft was reported to bail out.

Quote:
Concerning the 4 September battle; isn`t Pniak the only one who reported something about 2-engined aircraft?
No.

Quote:
Isn`t true that on 2.9. the pilots of III/4 recognized the Bf 110`s as Dornier Do 17?
It is true - similar errors were made a year later, when Me 110 was well known.

Quote:
Isn`t true that on 4.9. they recognized the Bf 109 as Bf 110?
No. They never reported Me 110s! They are reported as Do 17s. You see, in Polish there is a clear difference between one and two.

Quote:
Other pilots for example of III/2 took Ju 87 for Do 17!
This is only your supposition.

Quote:
Lesniewski couldn`t have claimed a Bf 110 on 4.9., because two days earlier he recognized this type as Do 17? You can be sure he would claim a Do 17 again!
You know better because you have never seen any original Polish document.

Quote:
Will you say Do 17 and Bf 110 were the same aircraft? I think Lesniewski saw the differences of aircraft he shot at 2.9. and 4.9. very well, but he couldn`t attach the right type, as most Polish fighter pilots at that time.
Combat of Leśniewski was witnessed by Rolski. He identified the enemy type as a Me 110 already in France.

Quote:
So isn`t true that Polish pilots couldn`t recognize German types?
It is apparent the German pilots invented all their victories over polish fighter aircraft because they could not recognise P-11 and P-24.

Quote:
The German documents are very reliable; they confirm that on 2.9. I./ZG 1 was engaged. And they confirm that on 4.9. I.(J)/LG 2 was involved. Will you deny these facts? And my last question: what is here ridiculous?! These are very reliable informations.
If the German documents are so reliable, please tell me at what time I.(J)/LG2 claims took place? Can you exclude Leśniewski was downed by eg. I/ZG1?

Quote:
Something more to Pniak. He saw his victims crash on ground!!. The first time on 2.9. and the second time on 4.9. As I researched and wrote in my books and articles this can`t be true. I am most convinced this could be a "black sheep" in the family of fighter pilots.
There is no such quote in Pniak's report. As yet you was unable to identify the enemy of Pniak, so I am very curious how you can exclude any losses? Overclaim happens but the only deliberate false claims I am awared of were made by pilots of JG27.

Quote:
Franek, you think all Polish accounts even written many years after are only facts, are you sure? You mean (for patriotic purposes?) there can`t be a black sheep in the family, but you are wrong.
Pniak's report has been written just after the combat. The problem is that Polish documents quite often disagree with yours, so you always tend to ignore the former.
  #20  
Old 21st August 2005, 18:47
Marius Marius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 284
Marius is on a distinguished road
Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Franek,


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius
in the origin combat report Skalski mentioned about one aircraft he shot at and then saw it crash on the ground. The second crash (of a second plane) was added in next report 1941 (!!). If you have found the second crash in original Polish documents from September 1939 so please tell me where you did

You have not seen the original report, have you? Skalski's report, written in haste, lacks a very important sentence - fate of the enemy aircraft, either it crashed or not. There are more period documents confirming that Skalski was credited with two kills, so the second kill must have been reported to crash. It is not my problem that you cannot understand that.

Pawlak published Skalski`s origin report (Samotne zalogi, page 82. Look also Lotnictwo 5/05). In the report there is only one crash of a German aircraft - certainly Bf 110 of Müllenheim-Rehberg, also attacked by Lesniewski. The other attacked aircraft flew away in formation and Skalski couldn`t chase it. Will you deny it?

Quote:
German propaganda booklet isn`t more important. I used such sources only then if they agreed with original German documents, that`s all. I sorted out books with propaganda only. You know that, because I wrote about this point in my book.
I was clear - you consider German propaganda more valuable than Polish documents.

Sorry, but I don`t understand. Why do you think this? Page number please.

Quote:
Perhaps you will find more Polish documents (perhaps, have you seen German documents?), but most of them were created even years after the campaign. As you confirm original Polish documents were lost during evacuation so what are you talking about?
I am curious how you came to such a conclusion having not researched Polish archives? There is a number of original 1939 Polish documents and diaries, this suplemented by hundreds of reports which were written following arrival to France. There is plenty to choose.

Franek, one of Skalski`s report was written in 1941 (!!), as many others too. You are writing about Polish documents written in France (earliest October/November 1939). That is right. And therefore you confirm that most of the origin Polish documents were going lost!

Quote:
Next point:
Where did I write that Polish pilots were poorly trained cowards and murderes? Could you give an example with page number etc. from by books?
Have not you read your own articles and books?!

This is not the answer to my question! Please give the page number.

Quote:
Yes I know what book Jim is speaking about. In this book too Cynk maintains Polish fighters destroyed 100 German aircraft (Cynk does not mean "claims", but lost aircraft by the Germans - that`s a big difference!). But concerning "paraphrasing", it makes a big difference when you are writing about losses you can find in many sources (even books). Cynk couldn`t do that, because there exist no books on this topic (I mean Luftwaffe in Poland comparable to my books). I used all Polish publications since 1947. My intention was to fill the German action with known Polish details. On the other hand it wasn`t my intention to describe Polish action and then fill it with German details... If I understand you correctly, you mean that all Polish autors are liars and I should visit the Sikorski Institute to verify what they wrote?!
That is another point. You have used everything written since 1947. Actually Polish archives were practically unavailable for the Polish authors up until 1990s. How do you expect the books to be completelly reliable?

So you confirm that Polish authors wrote fairy-tales? Great...
Did you find something that is contradictory to my research? Source? Document? Please give more details.

Quote:
On 2 September a parachute was observed and that is right. The only pilot who parachuted was Ofw. Weng of Müllenheim-Rehberg`s aircraft (I./ZG 1).
I asked you in vain, what is the evidence Weng ever parachuted? How can you be so sure, if in the same article you claim that you cannot verify losses of KG3?

My dear! Even the GQM records are relating about one man parachuted of I./ZG 1 (in the origin FSA what means Fallschirmabsprung - bale out). Also Hans Weng survived the war and reported later about his baling out and captivity in Poland (see for example one of the Jägerblatt issues).
I cleared my mistake with KG 3 later in my answer to J.B.Cynk. In the meanwhile I have found the archive documents of Prof.Trenel (BA/MA Freiburg), who confirms that there were no engagemnets between KG 3 and Polish fighters on 2.9.

Quote:
There is no evidence of other German aircraft lost in this battle. Not in archives, not in personal losses, nowhere. And where are the other observerd victories and where is the evidence for that? Please give me more details.
I wrote it clear. One of the airmen of the bomber aircraft was reported to bail out.

What bomber type? Who reported this? What is the name of the airman? What unit?

Quote:
Concerning the 4 September battle; isn`t Pniak the only one who reported something about 2-engined aircraft?
No.

Okay. Who else reported about two-engined aircraft? Source, page number?


Quote:
Isn`t true that on 2.9. the pilots of III/4 recognized the Bf 110`s as Dornier Do 17?
It is true - similar errors were made a year later, when Me 110 was well known.

Okay. So you mean they didn`t recognized the types of German aircraft one year later in England, but they did it already in France 1939/40 (see above)?
And so your conclusion is III/4 fouhgt on 4.9. with Bf 110 of ZG 1??

Quote:
Isn`t true that on 4.9. they recognized the Bf 109 as Bf 110?
No. They never reported Me 110s! They are reported as Do 17s. You see, in Polish there is a clear difference between one and two.

Okay. See Cynk "Polskie Lotnictwo..." page 247. Bajan`s list on 4.9.:
kpt. Lesniewski 1 Me 110.


Quote:
Other pilots for example of III/2 took Ju 87 for Do 17!
This is only your supposition.

So read about the fighting with Ju 87 on 1 and 2 September between III/2 and I./StG 2.

Quote:
Lesniewski couldn`t have claimed a Bf 110 on 4.9., because two days earlier he recognized this type as Do 17? You can be sure he would claim a Do 17 again!
You know better because you have never seen any original Polish document.

Okay, thank you very much. You are really helpful.

Quote:
Will you say Do 17 and Bf 110 were the same aircraft? I think Lesniewski saw the differences of aircraft he shot at 2.9. and 4.9. very well, but he couldn`t attach the right type, as most Polish fighter pilots at that time.
Combat of Leśniewski was witnessed by Rolski. He identified the enemy type as a Me 110 already in France.

Oh yes... in France, but not in Poland. That is the big difference.

Quote:
So isn`t true that Polish pilots couldn`t recognize German types?
It is apparent the German pilots invented all their victories over polish fighter aircraft because they could not recognise P-11 and P-24.

Surely it was for Germans very difficult to differ P.11 and P.24. They are very similar and the German pilots was told the Poles were flying the newest aicraft. But no way. It makes a bigger difference when you cannot differ fighter from bomber aircraft.

Quote:
The German documents are very reliable; they confirm that on 2.9. I./ZG 1 was engaged. And they confirm that on 4.9. I.(J)/LG 2 was involved. Will you deny these facts? And my last question: what is here ridiculous?! These are very reliable informations.
If the German documents are so reliable, please tell me at what time I.(J)/LG2 claims took place? Can you exclude Leśniewski was downed by eg. I/ZG1?

On 4.9. I.(J)/LG 2 surely fought with III/4. Or could you report another Polish squadron did?
We know I./ZG 1 is a problem. But there is no evidence of downed Bf 110 on this day. In Poland Bf 110`s operated as "Rotte" (two-aircraft formation). Pniak reported about 3 aircraft that were attacking him. Certainly a "Kette" - 3 Ju 87 of III./StG 2, not 3 Bf 110`s. I think Pniak didn`t recognized the aircraft right. Your argumentation is weak. Other sources for twin-engined aircraft?


Quote:
Something more to Pniak. He saw his victims crash on ground!!. The first time on 2.9. and the second time on 4.9. As I researched and wrote in my books and articles this can`t be true. I am most convinced this could be a "black sheep" in the family of fighter pilots.
There is no such quote in Pniak's report. As yet you was unable to identify the enemy of Pniak, so I am very curious how you can exclude any losses? Overclaim happens but the only deliberate false claims I am awared of were made by pilots of JG27.

Oh, you are wrong about Pniak. See Cynk Polskie Lotnictwo... page 182 for 2.9. Pniak reported that his victim - a Dornier - hit the ground.
On 4.9. see page 242. Pniak reported the aircraft he attacked hit the wood. Both reports are origin combat reports written on 4 September!
III./StG 2 had one aircraft totally lost and this one was downed by Lachowicki-Czechowicz. Perhaps Pniak wasn`t a black sheep but only had a big fancy...


Quote:
Franek, you think all Polish accounts even written many years after are only facts, are you sure? You mean (for patriotic purposes?) there can`t be a black sheep in the family, but you are wrong.
Pniak's report has been written just after the combat. The problem is that Polish documents quite often disagree with yours, so you always tend to ignore the former.

I explained many things and gave sources and page numbers. Now it is your turn writing something more logical.

Marius
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
German claims and Allied losses May 1940 Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 19th May 2010 11:13
60 years after German KL Auchwitz-Birkenau Mirek Wawrzynski The Second World War in General 10 7th January 2008 15:20
"Wirklich beschossen" claims in German materials Csaba B. Stenge Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 7 19th August 2005 09:02
German Claims for 13 Dec 1941 Buz Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 3 18th August 2005 15:27


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net