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  #51  
Old 11th September 2005, 19:04
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Franek,


I have provided evidence that your 'view' of III/4 activities is completely distorted.


Really? So were are the other destroyed German aircraft by III/4? Unit? Killed or wounded crew?


Quote:
About the German sources you can find many informations in my books...
No, I cannot. There are no footnotes and it is not clear what is in documents and what is your invention.


You will find the sources in appendixes (books, archives and other).


Quote:
I asked you to tell us what there is so decisive concerning the German aircraft losses and you did not respond. Right?
There is plenty but you deny it.


???
I do not deny anything. I mean for the discussion about III/4. More details please!


Quote:
That is not true. There is no missing sentence. 1939 in the original combat record Skalski stated that the second enemy aircraft flew away in formation what means Skalski could not bring it down. In 1941 this aircraft susprisingly crashed on the ground. We have here two different statements. German documents confirm the report written 1939.
No, it is clear problem with your head. Skalski in his report is reffering to ANOTHER formation but it seems it is too hard for you to understand that.
The report goes more less as follows:
In the Chełmża West-Unisław area I saw about eleven (11) bombing aircraft “DO17” being unable to warn section ldr I separated and attacked from the front and above firing few bursts from the distance of 200-50m, the e/a went down, I turned back after him firing few more bursts. The aircraft shuffled down and thumped on the ground. Next I took height again and attacked a second one from astern firing long burst I kept on tail until fire burst from the port wing, I followed him to 300m, [here is the missing sentence] next I started to gain height, to attack again but e/a in a vic of 5 flew in Bydgoszcz direction at a great speed. I gave up the chase and flew towards the front line in Łasin direction. Having met nothing over Łasin I flew to Grudziądz-Toruń. Behind Grudziądz I met a single Do17 and started to chase it, e/a started to gain height to 7000m and dropped into clouds, I gave up the chase and returned to the airfield alone. I note that own h.m.g. positions fired at me.



Franek, you are manipulating here an original combat report! The missing sentence is only in your phantasy. In the 1939 report and later in 1941 as well Skalski wrote about two separate aircraft he fought against. If he would attack a third which (reportet 1939) he couldn`t bring down so he would report it 1941 also. But he does not. The second attacked aircraft crashed on the ground due to 1941 report only.
And what makes you sure he fought with another formation?

Skalski was credited with two kills in September 1939, because somebody in the unit ment "fire burst from the port wing" is enough to credite the aircraft as personal kill for the pilot.

Surely, this aircraft may has been damaged, but there exist no evidence for another missing or force landed aircraft. In German RLM nobody would credite Skalski with two kills, because he had no witnesses.



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I said Skalski colorized his report written 1941.
And this should end up in a court.


?????
Do you mean this kind of intimidation is the basis for a serious discussion between two adult men interested in air war history?


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Yes, in my article I did not wrote about two battles, because in both (between 12:30 and 14:30 ?) participated III./StG 2 and III/4. But in my answer to you I did.
Based on what documents?


On German documents as Polish as well - published for example by J.B.Cynk.


Quote:
Nevertheless the German losses will remain the same: 1 Ju 87 totally destroyed and some more damaged. So what do you want? Should we speak about a battle (at appr. 12:30) where participated 3 PZL only?
I just want to prove the German documents are not so reliable.


Why not? I have seen and analyzed all here in our Bundesarchiv. There are only two documents which do not mention all action times of each squadron. III./StG 2 and I./ZG 76. Therefore they are a little bit inaccurate, because the squadrons operated not together (mostly). On the other hand there survived one thin book for each unit only. So you must take the log books of pilots and you can fill the time gaps again.


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Pniak saw his victims crash on 2.9. and 4.9. as well. German documents shaw evidently that these planes in fact did not crash.
Anybody else on this forum can read Polish? If so, I will post relevant scan of the 4.09 report just to prove Mr. Emmerling has no slightest idea what is he writing about.


?????
?????


Quote:
Yes the KTB of ZG 1 probably did not survive, but the German documentation was made on many stages (surfaces?).
The word you are looking for is level. The question remains, which level is most reliable.


The different levels (thanks for the word, I was not at home) complete one another very well.


Quote:
Concerning the total losses there is no lack of documentation despite of what many Polish historians wrote and now Franek is trying to tell us. As I wrote earlier I found the fate of almost all German planes lost 60-100% in September 1939. This means appr.290-295 of 303 (only the fate of some 10 Hs 126/He 46 remains a problem by now, but I am working on it).
And here we come to the key of the problem. Most of those aircraft are not identified by their WNr, so we cannot verify their ultimate fate, like with Hammes' aircraft. Also, all the damaged aircraft below 60% are not listed, and this leaves a large gap. Mr. Emmerling claims that Polish pilots colourised while claiming the German aircraft but he uses only total losses lists.

A damaged aircraft is not a destroyed aircraft. Polish pilots claimed also probables and damaged, right?
And you lie again Franek, because I wrote about all known damaged aircraft also, but not listed them separately together with 60-100%`s..


A Polish pilot who shot down a German aircraft that force landed in field and then was overrun by German troops, recovered and repaired, will be accused by Mr. Emmerling of lie.


?????
Why this? Such aircraft were posted as missing.



Quote:
Sorry, but I do not understand. It is clear that we are discussing about something based on German and Polish documents. So what are you writing about?
I mean that for example Victor Moelders expressed better opinion about Polish pilots rather than you.


Great! Long after the war he wrote something and right now you need it... What about other evidences?
I never expressed an opinion about Polish pilots. German documents did.


Quote:
No Franek, that is not true. Skalski later colorized, that is all. As I remember Polish pilots reported on 2.9. about 7 claims at all, all against I./ZG 1.
You remember - I know. That is the difference.

?????
What is this?


Quote:
In September 1939 there existed no confirmation system comparable to German (RLM) or others.
I am not awared of any such crazy bureaucratic system as created by RLM, which consumed time and money only to be as unreliable as the other ones.


...crazy bureaucratic system is better than confirmation by a "General" to rise the morale of losing army.


Quote:
Polish claims were first "investigated" and confirmed by the Bajan Commission 1945. It is ridicule when you are stating plk. Stachon did confirm the claims (in September 1939) made by Skalski. So may I ask you how he did? Saw he the German wrecks or what exactly was going on?
The problem is again you write about matters you have NO SLIGHTEST IDEA!!! There are several documents confirming that the pilots were credited with kills already in 1939. Bajan Commission was established to verify those claims but especially to convert them into RAF criteria adopted by the PAF. Concerning Stachoń's confirmation, I have a photocopy of the document and it is not my problem that you cannot believe it does exist.


So who exactly - what institution - credited Polish pilots with kills?
Oh, I truly believe that Stachons document exist. But for you this is the hard evidence for the wrecked German aircraft?!


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Even if General Eisenhower would confirm this claims, it would change nothing.
How about Ramses XIII?


Yes, why not.




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By the way, where did I wrote about Polish pilots as cowards and murderers? I repeatedly ask for that, because you are making false propaganda here on the forum. I can answer to this by myself: I did nowhere.
Really? How about those Polish pilots not willing to engage the German aircraft?


I`m sorry, but so mentioned in many German documents. By the way, a simple human reaction.



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But a Polish historians told me before some time that after the battle kpt. Kowalczyk (commanding IV/1) was very angry and disappointed about what his pilots did.
Who? Apparently either he was not clear or you had misunderstood him. After the repeated German attacks on bailing out airmen, on 4.09 Brygada Pościgowa's command issued an order not to attack Germans in the revenge. It happenned during the battle over Koło two days later, that one of the pilots hit a German airman with his wing. It is not clear if it was intentional or not but I would say such an intentional attack could have been quite risky. Anyway, Kowalczyk reputedly did a speech but only evidence of it was an account of a man who was a young boy (12 or 14 I think) present on the airfield at the time and as such must be taken with a grain of salt.


Sorry, but this man is frightened by people like you. Perhaps you will ask J.B.Cynk? He is an authority and should know about these things.



Quote:
I don`t know what Skalski did later in the war. We are discussing here about the beginning of it, first combats and losses... Skalski`s kills in Poland can be verified and I have done it. I`m very sorry that there is no confirmation for his several kills.
Skalski claimed four individual and one shared kill, with an another shared being rejected. Another aircraft was claimed shared damaged by him. Of those kills you cannot confirm one aircraft destroyed on 2.09 and one damaged on 4.09. His kills during the BoB seems to be fully confirmed by the German losses, problems starting after the Battle, due to serious losses of the German documents.


Please give the exactly date for each claim in September 1939.



Quote:
The quality of your photo may be poor. I have one where you can see the wet ground (more darkened earth) under the wing and fuselage. I think due to water or something like that.
Quality is excellent, much better than in your books. No slightest trace of fire.


So surely you have a different photo.


Quote:
This is much too less. You must have some trace of an aircraft wreck or the name of a wounded or downed pilot or something else. Just a simple claim in Polish documents is not enough.
Why? If a Polish pilot claims that a German airman baled out, I see no reason not to believe him. I have a document from RAF FC confirming a kill based on fact that there was a parachute seen on the guncam film, but the German action report states there were no losses. Sorry, I would rather trust camera evidence than your documents.


Again you write about the German Bordfunker of Muehlenheim-Rehberg: Hans Weng. For what?


Quote:
By the way, German documents as for example of Fliegerdivision 1 are reporting about the lost Bf 110 and a further slightly wounded Bordfunker. Do you mean German documents would report about something less important as slightly wounded aircrew and nothing more about other missing aircraft or even wounded or killed pilots?
Can you assure me the German documents are complete? Sorry, you cannot. I have seen plenty of multi level documents and I know their marigin of error.


We have to discuss about what we have and not about fata morgana.



Quote:
Perhaps they looked "untouched", but we know they were shot down and the damage was considerable even if not to see on the photos. I am sure they were treated as total losses.
Please provide a document stating that the aircraft was written off! I am not interested in your beliefs.


Yes, of course. Even in OKL lists they are posted as shot down on enemy territory or lost 100%.

Marius
  #52  
Old 11th September 2005, 20:07
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Franek Grabowski
Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmussen
Can you give an document that the aircraft wasn't written off?? If not your words are poor, only polemic - not more, not less.
I cannot provide any document as a WNr remains unknown. Anyway, in case of aircraft there are several documents describing its fate, be it movement card or log book. If an aircraft appears in documents at a later date, obviously it could not have been written off as well.
  #53  
Old 11th September 2005, 21:03
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Franek Grabowski
Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius
Really? So were are the other destroyed German aircraft by III/4? Unit? Killed or wounded crew?
What the German aircraft have to the Polish ones?

Quote:
You will find the sources in appendixes (books, archives and other).
Nope, neither book nor articles are footnoted.

Quote:
???
I do not deny anything. I mean for the discussion about III/4. More details please!
Skalski's combat on 4.09 for example. He claimed a Do 17 damaged. No comment on your side at all - you just have not found it.

Quote:
Franek, you are manipulating here an original combat report!
I am not manipulating it! It is translated word by word.

Quote:
The missing sentence is only in your phantasy.
So Mr know better, please explain me, why such sentences are in the every other Skalski's report?

Quote:
In the 1939 report and later in 1941 as well Skalski wrote about two separate aircraft he fought against. If he would attack a third which (reportet 1939) he couldn`t bring down so he would report it 1941 also. But he does not. The second attacked aircraft crashed on the ground due to 1941 report only.
He did not attack a third one!

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And what makes you sure he fought with another formation?
Apart of later accounts, 11-2=9 and it is not 5. First class of math in a basic school I think.

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Skalski was credited with two kills in September 1939, because somebody in the unit ment "fire burst from the port wing" is enough to credite the aircraft as personal kill for the pilot.
Provide a supporting document for your thesis. Apparently it was not enough as Skalski was initially not credited with a Do 17 on 4.09.

Quote:
Surely, this aircraft may has been damaged, but there exist no evidence for another missing or force landed aircraft. In German RLM nobody would credite Skalski with two kills, because he had no witnesses.
RLM credited German pilots with far too many kills. That is the one thing. Another is that as yet you cannot prove anything in either way.

Quote:
?????
Do you mean this kind of intimidation is the basis for a serious discussion between two adult men interested in air war history?
I mean it goes outside of the scope of historical research and is a serious accusation.

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On German documents as Polish as well - published for example by J.B.Cynk.
So you agree that the German documents are not complete and must be supplemented by the Polish ones.

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Why not? I have seen and analyzed all here in our Bundesarchiv. There are only two documents which do not mention all action times of each squadron. III./StG 2 and I./ZG 76. Therefore they are a little bit inaccurate, because the squadrons operated not together (mostly). On the other hand there survived one thin book for each unit only. So you must take the log books of pilots and you can fill the time gaps again.
And how can you verify times given in KTBs?

Quote:
?????
?????
Yup. You have no slightest idea, what has been written in Pniak's report.

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The different levels (thanks for the word, I was not at home) complete one another very well.
Really? What level of documents do you have?

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A damaged aircraft is not a destroyed aircraft. Polish pilots claimed also probables and damaged, right?
Not in 1939, those claims were ammended at a later date. Otherwise a damaged or probably destroyed aircraft is still an aerial victory. Especially if force landed.

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And you lie again Franek, because I wrote about all known damaged aircraft also, but not listed them separately together with 60-100%`s..
Your list of damaged aircraft is far from complete.

Quote:
?????
Why this? Such aircraft were posted as missing.
Would you scrap a slightly damaged aircraft worth of some thousands of RM???

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Great! Long after the war he wrote something and right now you need it... What about other evidences?
So you claim that Moelders lied?

Quote:
I never expressed an opinion about Polish pilots. German documents did.
German documents do not mention the fact radial engines of PZLs had over 300 hrs of flight time each for example.

Quote:
?????
What is this?
This is a difference. I know that Poles claimed 7 Do 17, you just guess it. I do not know what were the units they fought against but you guess it.

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...crazy bureaucratic system is better than confirmation by a "General" to rise the morale of losing army.
This bureaucratic system was as inaccurate as the one of losing army.

Quote:
So who exactly - what institution - credited Polish pilots with kills?
When?

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Oh, I truly believe that Stachons document exist. But for you this is the hard evidence for the wrecked German aircraft?!
I do not need any German aircraft here. The question was, with how many aircraft Skalski was credited in 1939.

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I`m sorry, but so mentioned in many German documents. By the way, a simple human reaction.
Interesting, as there were exactly the same comments on the Polish side in regard of the Germans.

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Sorry, but this man is frightened by people like you. Perhaps you will ask J.B.Cynk? He is an authority and should know about these things.
I will. But I do not expect any knowledge on things that never happenned.

Quote:
Please give the exactly date for each claim in September 1939.
Why, you have them in Cynk's book?

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So surely you have a different photo.
Different one of the same aircraft.

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Again you write about the German Bordfunker of Muehlenheim-Rehberg: Hans Weng. For what?
So again you claim Leśniewski and Skalski shot at the same aircraft. Sorry, discussion with you is nonsense if you cannot understand what is in the Polish reports.

Quote:
We have to discuss about what we have and not about fata morgana.
We have to be critical towards any evidence.

Quote:
Yes, of course. Even in OKL lists they are posted as shot down on enemy territory or lost 100%.
This does not mean the aircraft was not recategorised, repaired and returned to the service.
  #54  
Old 11th September 2005, 22:51
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Franek,


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius
Really? So were are the other destroyed German aircraft by III/4? Unit? Killed or wounded crew?

What the German aircraft have to the Polish ones?


They fought against each other. In many aerial battles was made an overclaiming. Also on 2.9. between III/4 and I./ZG 1.


Quote:
You will find the sources in appendixes (books, archives and other).
Nope, neither book nor articles are footnoted.


Jagdflieger, page 255-257.

Quote:
???
I do not deny anything. I mean for the discussion about III/4. More details please!
Skalski's combat on 4.09 for example. He claimed a Do 17 damaged. No comment on your side at all - you just have not found it.


Damaged means not shot down. It is not a kill.
Skalski damaged a Do 17 together with Lesniewski and Pniak in the Solec (Zlotoria) region. Are you surprised now about what I have found?

Quote:
Franek, you are manipulating here an original combat report!
I am not manipulating it! It is translated word by word.


And what about the missing sentence?! Please comment it!


Quote:
The missing sentence is only in your phantasy.
So Mr know better, please explain me, why such sentences are in the every other Skalski's report?


Which reports? If there exist another one report written by Skalski on 2.9.1939 so please show it.

Quote:
In the 1939 report and later in 1941 as well Skalski wrote about two separate aircraft he fought against. If he would attack a third which (reportet 1939) he couldn`t bring down so he would report it 1941 also. But he does not. The second attacked aircraft crashed on the ground due to 1941 report only.
He did not attack a third one!


Yes that is the point! Therefore there is no missing sentence in the original report.


Quote:
And what makes you sure he fought with another formation?
Apart of later accounts, 11-2=9 and it is not 5. First class of math in a basic school I think.


Perhaps the other aircraft fought with other PZL of III/4 or came down to attack ground targets? You think simple math is enough to show it was another formation?! Perhaps you could tell us what German unit it was?


Quote:
Skalski was credited with two kills in September 1939, because somebody in the unit ment "fire burst from the port wing" is enough to credite the aircraft as personal kill for the pilot.
Provide a supporting document for your thesis. Apparently it was not enough as Skalski was initially not credited with a Do 17 on 4.09.


Sorry, I mean the fight on 2.9. with I./ZG 1 and the attack on the second aircraft due to the original report.


Quote:
Surely, this aircraft may has been damaged, but there exist no evidence for another missing or force landed aircraft. In German RLM nobody would credite Skalski with two kills, because he had no witnesses.
RLM credited German pilots with far too many kills. That is the one thing. Another is that as yet you cannot prove anything in either way.


Yes surely, but how many kills would arise if there wouldn`t exist the RLM? That is the point concerning Polish (confirmed!) claims in September 1939.

Quote:
?????
Do you mean this kind of intimidation is the basis for a serious discussion between two adult men interested in air war history?
I mean it goes outside of the scope of historical research and is a serious accusation.


?????
So why don`t you try it with a serious argumentation?


Quote:
On German documents as Polish as well - published for example by J.B.Cynk.
So you agree that the German documents are not complete and must be supplemented by the Polish ones.


Regarding Polish claims it must be just the other way round. Polish kills must be verified by German documents.



Quote:
Why not? I have seen and analyzed all here in our Bundesarchiv. There are only two documents which do not mention all action times of each squadron. III./StG 2 and I./ZG 76. Therefore they are a little bit inaccurate, because the squadrons operated not together (mostly). On the other hand there survived one thin book for each unit only. So you must take the log books of pilots and you can fill the time gaps again.
And how can you verify times given in KTBs?


You can compare the times with personal log books of air crews. Or you can compare the times given by KTB of a fighter unit with one of a bomber unit escorted by it.

Quote:
?????
?????
Yup. You have no slightest idea, what has been written in Pniak's report.


Certainly. You mean the aircraft did not crash in a wood, but nevertheless Pniak was credited with a kill. What a contradiction!


Quote:
The different levels (thanks for the word, I was not at home) complete one another very well.
Really? What level of documents do you have?


For example: War diary of Luftflotte 4, War diary of Fliegerdivision 2, War diaries of separate units - even squadrons, OKL loss lists, personal loss lists of WaSt and so on and so on...

Quote:
A damaged aircraft is not a destroyed aircraft. Polish pilots claimed also probables and damaged, right?
Not in 1939, those claims were ammended at a later date. Otherwise a damaged or probably destroyed aircraft is still an aerial victory. Especially if force landed.


This is your own personal definition of a kill. There exist many different definitions. J.B.Cynk`s definition of a kill is: each aircraft destroyed by Polish fighters as related in German documents as 60-100% loss.
My own personal definition: each aircraft recorded as lost 60-100% or force landed due to damage caused by Polish fighters. Therefore I wrote about maximally 50-60 kills: 40-45 aircraft 60-100% and about 10-15 damaged and force landed, but not destroyed.



Quote:
And you lie again Franek, because I wrote about all known damaged aircraft also, but not listed them separately together with 60-100%`s..
Your list of damaged aircraft is far from complete.


I never mentioned it is complete.


Quote:
?????
Why this? Such aircraft were posted as missing.
Would you scrap a slightly damaged aircraft worth of some thousands of RM???


Who said slightly damaged aircraft were scrapped? Therefore Germans used the procentual system of damage - under 60% repairable.
Only J.B.Cynk did it - to rise the kills of Polish pilots to 100 (see his article in Lotnictwo 5/05).


Quote:
Great! Long after the war he wrote something and right now you need it... What about other evidences?
So you claim that Moelders lied?


No, but it seems to you to be very important what Moelders wrote after the war. Other evidences?


Quote:
I never expressed an opinion about Polish pilots. German documents did.
German documents do not mention the fact radial engines of PZLs had over 300 hrs of flight time each for example.


So what about this?
Polish fighters, if not outnumbered to German Kette (3 He 111), did not attack.
War Diary of II./KG 26.


Quote:
?????
What is this?
This is a difference. I know that Poles claimed 7 Do 17, you just guess it. I do not know what were the units they fought against but you guess it.


?????
?????
I know it also, but was not at home at that time.


Quote:
...crazy bureaucratic system is better than confirmation by a "General" to rise the morale of losing army.
This bureaucratic system was as inaccurate as the one of losing army.


I doubt it!


Quote:
So who exactly - what institution - credited Polish pilots with kills?
When?


?????
?????
In Poland 1939.


Quote:
Oh, I truly believe that Stachons document exist. But for you this is the hard evidence for the wrecked German aircraft?!
I do not need any German aircraft here. The question was, with how many aircraft Skalski was credited in 1939.


?????
Sure, you content with destroyed ghost aircraft confirmed by a "General", everybody knows what for.
The question was how many aircraft Skalski (and other his fellows like Pniak) really destroyed. On 2.9. against I./ZG 1 they claimed 7 kills. In German documents you can find only 1 lost Bf 110.
I am not seriously interested how many kills Skalski wanted to have claimed, but what in fact was destroyed according to German documents. This is more important than your comments on plk. Stachon who confirmed what he never saw.



Quote:
I`m sorry, but so mentioned in many German documents. By the way, a simple human reaction.
Interesting, as there were exactly the same comments on the Polish side in regard of the Germans.


Where? In Polish original documents?
Yes, why not? If I would fly in a Hs 126 and I would have been attacked by a Polish fighter - for sure I would flee as fast as I can. You not?


Quote:
Sorry, but this man is frightened by people like you. Perhaps you will ask J.B.Cynk? He is an authority and should know about these things.
I will. But I do not expect any knowledge on things that never happenned.


What never happened?


Quote:
Please give the exactly date for each claim in September 1939.
Why, you have them in Cynk's book?


Please do it for other readers not understanding Polish language (like me).


Quote:
So surely you have a different photo.
Different one of the same aircraft.


So look at the photo in my book Jagdflieger, right side of the plane. What is it, darkened ground under the right wing and forward fuselage where apparently was a problem with right engine (look at the propellers!)?


Quote:
Again you write about the German Bordfunker of Muehlenheim-Rehberg: Hans Weng. For what?
So again you claim Leśniewski and Skalski shot at the same aircraft. Sorry, discussion with you is nonsense if you cannot understand what is in the Polish reports.


?????
Again you just avoid what you don`t like.
Only Lesniewski reported about a parachuted aircrew. Skalski did not. Right?


Quote:
Yes, of course. Even in OKL lists they are posted as shot down on enemy territory or lost 100%.
This does not mean the aircraft was not recategorised, repaired and returned to the service.

So maybe in fact Polish fighters destroyed only about 10 German aircraft? What do you mean?

Marius
  #55  
Old 12th September 2005, 13:33
Andreas Brekken's Avatar
Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Hi, guys.

Just posting a comment regarding documentation which I feel is important to get right. Ruy, if You read this, maybe there could be room for posting a permanent message regarding this issue - the RLM damage assertion system.

First - Marius, Franek and all You other guys - it is important to understand the bureaucratic systems we analyze before making assumptions or conclusions based on them...

With regards to the RLM loss reporting system there is one major flaw - we DO NOT have the entire series of documents ranging from Sept 1939 through May 1945...

Why is this important - and why is it such a major flaw? The main reason is that one cannot really trust these records 100% without a secondary confirmation - due to the way these were made:

The unit reported their losses to a higher headquarter which in turn reported these to the so-called 6. unit of the Generalquartiermeiser of the Luftwaffe. (this was also called the Statistical unit for a period of time during the war).
This unit reported all losses in the well known listings we have probably all studied, and there must have been a loop involved here - thus the reporting units must have had some way of reading the 'results' because amendments and corrections were made as follow-ups where necessary.

And this is the clue! I have all these corrections in my database system, and as an example I have corrections for 1940 reported in the last batch of corrections available for 1943, the one for report date 29.12.1943! Thus this correction were made nearly THREE YEARS after the incident.

But Franek, before You go ballistic there is one thing that is worth to mention: These are the extremes, and not the usual situation. What is also nice is that the guys or girls that filled out these reports made the corrections in red coloured pencil (colour of course not visible on the microfilmed records, but they are on the originals, as seen in Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv) on the relevant record. Thus for a given correction for a name or a WNr, the original would be corrected or stricken out and the corrected information added in handwriting. This is often hard to read on the microfilmed records, and thus it is necessary to have control over the corrections before working with the loss listings. (Fortunately I have all these stored in my database....!!!)

Further - a 100% loss can be two situations:

1. An aircraft totally destroyed beyond any repair or even useable for parts.

2. An aircraft with an unknown destiny!

The latter is extremely important, as I have frequently seen aircraft damaged 100% reappear... the reason for this is quite simple and can be seen quite often in the loss records:

Just an example here:

Uffz. Beck, Obgfr. Bölling mit Flzg.unverletzt zurück. Streiche: 2 Vermißte. Ändere Bruch von 100% in 40%. Streiche: 1 Flzg.total. Setze: 1 Flzg.beschädigt. (Ar 66, Werk-Nr. 281).

Thus the above mentioned aircraft was first reported as 100% loss (misiisng), then the crew returned with their aircraft which was damaged, and the damage was changed from 100% to 40%. Other examples show that the aircraft changed from 100% (missing) to 0% (undamaged), usually when a pilot had made an 'Aussenlandung' late in the war.

We must also be aware of one thing - the Luftwaffe seldom used a damage percentage below 10% in a report. Thus a slightly damaged aircraft, typically damage from small calibre firearms would not be reported at all. There are numerous examples of corrections as the two shown here:

Streiche ganz (1 Flzg.besch. Ju 52, 2879), da Bruch unter 10%.

Streiche ganz (1 Flzg. besch. Bf 109 G6, 230145), da Bruch unter 10%.

In my personal opinion, a so-called aerial kill should force the aircraft or crew in question to be lost as a useful asset by the air force operating it for a minimum amount of time.

I feel that the situation where a crew returned with their aircraft to territory controlled by own forces and the aircraft sustained a small damage would not count as a kill. In that case most of the bombers in the 8th Air Force would be counted as kills...

However - an aircraft damaged beyond repair even when landing in own territory should count as a kill.

In this discussion I feel we have one major problem, and that cannot be solved if Franek doesn't change his position, I will try to elaborate on this:

There seem to be no discrepancies regarding the fact that mr. Skalski opened fire on 3 aircraft during this aerial battle.

One of these aircraft can be identified as lost by the German Luftwaffe.

Mr. Skalski was awarded 2 aerial kills by the Polish Air force for his actions on this day.

These are the established facts as far as I can read from the discussion.

Now - there should really be NO reason for namecalling in any direction when Marius says that he can only document one of these aircraft as lost by the Luftwaffe. The easy way out is for Franek to say that 'Yes, the solution to this is probably that the second aircraft fired upon by Skalski was able to put out the fire and return slightly damaged, a damage below 10%, and that is the reason we cannot find a corresponding loss in the records. The Polish Air Force thus awarded one aerial victory too much. This we now can see after all these years based on documents from BOTH sides.' Case closed...

No person is perfect - certainly not in a stressful situation - and as I stated earlier - to be able to have total 3D control of all events during an aerial dogfight is not humanly possible - errors are made. On this backdrop I feel You have to reconsider, Franek, and try to be a bit scientific about Your undoubtly very interesting work regarding the history of the Polish Air force during WWII.

I also feel that if Marius has stated (something I would like to have confirmation from sources other than Franek about) that Skalski was all the bad words Franek says he used, this is also uncalled for of course.

My best tip is to cool off and try to find as much of the factual evidence as can be found, and restart the discussion with a clean slate and a reference material at hand - in Polish, English, German and whatever language.

And please also bear in mind: An author is by no means perfect either!!! A published book is at best this persons interpretation of what happened, in most cases the person never witnessed what he is writing about and is basing his story on documents and eyewitness accounts which can't be taken as more than that... Catch whatever, right??

Regards,
Andreas
  #56  
Old 12th September 2005, 16:04
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Hi Andreas,
I saw in our Bundesarchiv anything you can find concerning the Luftwaffe in Poland 1939. Also the original loss lists of OKL (not the microfilms). You are right because many things are not visible on the microfilms.

But you are wrong in one important case. The OKL loss lists for September 1939 are not complete concerning the damaged German aircraft above 10%! I know it because I have analyzed and compared all documents I needed for my research. So in fact Skalski could have damaged a Bf 110 or even both and you will not find such an information there (but despite of this read my comment below concerning the Fl.Div.1 document). For example: on 9.9. I./ZG 76 fought against Polish fighters of 152 and 112 eskadra in the Lublin & Kielce regions. 3 Bf 110 were damaged (20,30 & 40%). In the OKL loss list you can find only the aircraft piloted by Lt. Lent who lost orientation and forcelanded near Kamienna (with a 90% loss of the Messerschmitt).

I do not state that on 2.9. pilots of III/4 did not damage some Bf 110 of I./ZG 1. This is possible. But if they did the damage was surely not considerable. The daily aircraft report of Fliegerdivision 1 at 16.00 hours (very important document because the war diary of I./ZG 1 was probaly lost) shows us only 1 Bf 110 less (the aircraft of the Gruppenkommandeur). The war diary of I./ZG 1 would explain more details of the possible damages (as shown above for I./ZG 76). But according to the Fliegerdivision 1 document you can exclude any other loss or force landing by I./ZG 1 - and this is decisive!
The war diary/loss list of Fliegerdivision 1 is reporting about further one aircrew slightly wounded. This shows us a damage (but surely not considerable) of another Bf 110.

A force landed aircraft on enemy territory would be reported as missing on the OKL & Fl.Div.1 document as well. Here you are right with the statement about two possibilities of 100% losses in OKL loss documents. For example there are many Ju 87`s recorded as missing and therefore as lost 100%. But in fact many returned unscathed. Nobody ever corrected it. You will find many solutions comparing OKL loss lists with other documents like war diaries of the units.

I described these topics in my book Jagdflieger. I surely will do it again in an English publication of it.

Marius
  #57  
Old 12th September 2005, 17:39
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Ruy Horta Ruy Horta is offline
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Re: German Claims in Poland 1939

Friends,

Although I have enjoyed much of this argument, I think it can be concluded that the main protagonists have been able to present their case and that any prolonged continuation of this thread will only lead to repetition and/or bickering.

Thanks,
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