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  #1  
Old 7th April 2019, 00:10
RodM RodM is offline
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Location of Preisenzath/Priensenzath in Germany

Hi,

can any one shed light on the following location in Germany. It supposedly refers to a place somewhere between roughly Hagen - Krefeld - Roermond:

Preisenzath (first spelling)
Priensenzath (second spelling)

The location (as spelt) in mentioned in various documents concerning a crashed Allied aircraft. I cannot locate such a place on any contemporary maps nor establish a place with a slightly different spelling.

Cheers

Rod
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  #2  
Old 7th April 2019, 09:08
GrafWolf GrafWolf is offline
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Re: Location of Preisenzath/Priensenzath in Germany

Good morning!

There is a small village named Friesenraht, 10 kilometers SE of Aachen.
50°41`50``N - 6°10`55``E

Hope this will help!

Herzliche Grüsse aus Oberschwaben,

Wolfgang
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  #3  
Old 7th April 2019, 11:46
Horst Weber Horst Weber is offline
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Re: Location of Preisenzath/Priensenzath in Germany

Quote:
Originally Posted by RodM View Post
Hi,

can any one shed light on the following location in Germany. It supposedly refers to a place somewhere between roughly Hagen - Krefeld - Roermond:

Preisenzath (first spelling)
Priensenzath (second spelling)

The location (as spelt) in mentioned in various documents concerning a crashed Allied aircraft. I cannot locate such a place on any contemporary maps nor establish a place with a slightly different spelling.

Cheers

Rod
Good morning Rod !

Can you provide us with a date and the a/c-type ?.

Thank you !

Horst Weber
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  #4  
Old 7th April 2019, 12:54
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Location of Preisenzath/Priensenzath in Germany

Hi Wolfgang,

thanks for the suggestion. I think Friesenraht is too far south in this case to be the location.

Hi Horst,

the aircraft was Lancaster KB870, lost on the night of 15-16 March 1945. Four other Lancasters crashed near Krefeld and SE of Krefeld. KB870 likely crashed in a similar area, perhaps W or SW of Krefeld. A surviving crew member estimated they baled out 10 miles east of the Rhine and 15 miles north of München-Gladbach.

The Americans recovered two bodies at the crash site of KB870 and recorded the location as "Preisenzath". The RAF Post-Presumption Memorandum for KB870 states the aircraft crashed at "Priensenzath".

Cheers

Rod
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Old 7th April 2019, 16:08
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: Location of Preisenzath/Priensenzath in Germany

Hello Rod,

Here are 1940-44 maps of Germany, 1 : 100,000 scale, that will surely show the location you are looking for. Krefeld is Map #378, I believe. Be patient. It takes forever and a month of Sundays to download these map sheets. From your additional information, it sounds like it's in the Viersen-Neersen-Willich area. I could not find your location on Google Earth or the Deutsche General Karte, 1 : 50,000 scale published in the late 1950's, so it must have changed its name right after the war.

http://igrek.amzp.pl/mapindex.php?cat=KDR100


L.
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  #6  
Old 7th April 2019, 18:16
Horst Weber Horst Weber is offline
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Re: Location of Preisenzath/Priensenzath in Germany

Quote:
Originally Posted by RodM View Post
Hi Wolfgang,

thanks for the suggestion. I think Friesenraht is too far south in this case to be the location.

Hi Horst,

the aircraft was Lancaster KB870, lost on the night of 15-16 March 1945. Four other Lancasters crashed near Krefeld and SE of Krefeld. KB870 likely crashed in a similar area, perhaps W or SW of Krefeld. A surviving crew member estimated they baled out 10 miles east of the Rhine and 15 miles north of München-Gladbach.

The Americans recovered two bodies at the crash site of KB870 and recorded the location as "Preisenzath". The RAF Post-Presumption Memorandum for KB870 states the aircraft crashed at "Priensenzath".

Cheers

Rod
Good evening Rod !

Bill Chorley's book "Bomber Command Losses 1945" states, that LANCASTER KB870 crashed that 15/16 March 1945 in American held territory. The four survivours of the crash were treated by the Americans. Now can be assumed, that the crash site was located in the Netherlands or in Belgium, close to the German border. The term "Prinsenzath" is leading to a Dutch location.

Horst Weber
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Old 8th April 2019, 01:37
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Location of Preisenzath/Priensenzath in Germany

Hi Larry,

thanks for the link. I've already scoured 1944 1:100,000-scale maps (GSGS 4081 series) of the entire region without success (plus it's like looking for a needle in a haystack). Even if the location had changed name, often a google search will produce hits from Genealogy sites. In this case there is absolutely nothing.

Hi Horst,

by 13th March, the Americans held territory right up to the Rhine (as confirmed by British War Cabinet situation Maps), so this encompassed parts of western Germany.


I don't have copies of the American TM 10-630/AR 30-1815 Report of Burial forms, which would record the location where the bodies were found.

A British transcript, presumably from the Report of Burial forms, states:

X.154 RCAF Killed in action at PREISENZATH (Germany). Buried at Margraten F/4/76 [F/O E.B. Carleton DFM RCAF, MUG]. The report describes the characteristics of the body and also describes markings found on the aircraft wreckage ("U R C K" and "K.B.870")

X.153 RCAF as above. Buried at Margraten F/4/90 (P/O A. Sutherland RCAF, W/Op].

X.153 RCAF as above. Buried at Margraten F/4/92 [F/O H.L. Garriock RCAF, Nav].

The later Air Ministry Post-Presumption Memorandum (after the three bodies were reinterred at Nederweert British Military Cemetery) states:

Relating to LANCASTER KB.870. Crashed at PRIENSENZATH Germany.

From the RAF K-Report, surviving crew members reported they were attacked by a night fighter circa 18.40 hrs while crossing the Rhine or just after, height 14,000 feet, heading 247 Deg T. The aircraft burst into flame and the pilot ordered the crew to abandon the aircraft. The Lancaster went into a spin and then disintegrated in mid-air, the pilot stating that the propeller from the starboard inner engine came off and cut the aircraft fuselage off right behind him.

The survivors didn't know exactly where they landed, but they were picked up by American soldiers and taken to a dressing station. They thought they landed "about ten miles west of the Rhine and 15 miles north of Munchen-Gladbach".

At this point, I'm assuming poor Anglo-American spelling of continental place names is to blame

Cheers

Rod
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  #8  
Old 8th April 2019, 16:10
GrafWolf GrafWolf is offline
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Re: Location of Preisenzath/Priensenzath in Germany

Hello Rod!

Again me and Friesenrath!
War cemetery Margraten is located only 20 kilometers west of Aachen.

Herzliche Grüsse aus Oberschwaben,

Wolfgang
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  #9  
Old 8th April 2019, 18:34
Horst Weber Horst Weber is offline
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Re: Location of Preisenzath/Priensenzath in Germany

Quote:
Originally Posted by RodM View Post
Hi Larry,

thanks for the link. I've already scoured 1944 1:100,000-scale maps (GSGS 4081 series) of the entire region without success (plus it's like looking for a needle in a haystack). Even if the location had changed name, often a google search will produce hits from Genealogy sites. In this case there is absolutely nothing.

Hi Horst,

by 13th March, the Americans held territory right up to the Rhine (as confirmed by British War Cabinet situation Maps), so this encompassed parts of western Germany.


I don't have copies of the American TM 10-630/AR 30-1815 Report of Burial forms, which would record the location where the bodies were found.

A British transcript, presumably from the Report of Burial forms, states:

X.154 RCAF Killed in action at PREISENZATH (Germany). Buried at Margraten F/4/76 [F/O E.B. Carleton DFM RCAF, MUG]. The report describes the characteristics of the body and also describes markings found on the aircraft wreckage ("U R C K" and "K.B.870")

X.153 RCAF as above. Buried at Margraten F/4/90 (P/O A. Sutherland RCAF, W/Op].

X.153 RCAF as above. Buried at Margraten F/4/92 [F/O H.L. Garriock RCAF, Nav].

The later Air Ministry Post-Presumption Memorandum (after the three bodies were reinterred at Nederweert British Military Cemetery) states:

Relating to LANCASTER KB.870. Crashed at PRIENSENZATH Germany.

From the RAF K-Report, surviving crew members reported they were attacked by a night fighter circa 18.40 hrs while crossing the Rhine or just after, height 14,000 feet, heading 247 Deg T. The aircraft burst into flame and the pilot ordered the crew to abandon the aircraft. The Lancaster went into a spin and then disintegrated in mid-air, the pilot stating that the propeller from the starboard inner engine came off and cut the aircraft fuselage off right behind him.

The survivors didn't know exactly where they landed, but they were picked up by American soldiers and taken to a dressing station. They thought they landed "about ten miles west of the Rhine and 15 miles north of Munchen-Gladbach".

At this point, I'm assuming poor Anglo-American spelling of continental place names is to blame

Cheers

Rod
Good afternoon Rod !

What's About Priesterrath?. This village was located just one km south of Jüchem, which is about 12 km south of Mönchengladbach. Unfortunately, the village disappeared due to the open-cast dignite mining in the area (Tagebau Garzweiler, Rheinisches Braunkohlerevier) in the 1980ies.

So you can't find it on present maps. But in the area are a lot of villages, ending with .rath.


Hope this helps.


Best wishes

Horst Weber
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  #10  
Old 8th April 2019, 20:19
Horst Weber Horst Weber is offline
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Re: Location of Preisenzath/Priensenzath in Germany

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horst Weber View Post
Good afternoon Rod !

What's About Priesterrath?. This village was located just one km south of Jüchem, which is about 12 km south of Mönchengladbach. Unfortunately, the village disappeared due to the open-cast dignite mining in the area (Tagebau Garzweiler, Rheinisches Braunkohlerevier) in the 1980ies.

So you can't find it on present maps. But in the area are a lot of villages, ending with .rath.


Hope this helps.


Best wishes

Horst Weber
Some corrections. The village's name is Priesterath and is located 1 km south of Jüchen. It disappeared completely in 1997 from the surface by open-cast lignite mining.


Horst Weber
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