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  #1  
Old 19th May 2015, 11:04
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JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

On May 20, 1944 during the famous battle of Targul Frumos
various assets of Tolbukin's 3rd Ukrainian Front were retreating back
towards East of Dubosari pressured by German armours ,
Panzer Grenadier Div.Grossdeutschland and 3rd SS Totenkopf
Division along with ground troops.

Covering the German offensive involved assets of JG52, II,/SG2
III./SG2 . Covering the Soviet retreat involved assets from 267 IAP
178 GvIAP, 113 GvIAP, 117 GvIAP 5 GvIAP, 438 GvIAP, 897 GvIAP
866 GvIAP and 153 GvIAP acting at various times during the day.

During the air clashes between the Soviets and Luftwaffe , the
JG52 claimed 16 Soviet fighters and 2 Boston bombers, the Soviets
claimed 3 ME-109 , 5 FW-190 and 3 JU-87.

According JG52 documents not even one fighter was lost
and according SG 2 only 1 JU-87 but due AA activity .

The Soviets reported the loss of 9 fighters only and no Boston
bombers at all .

Questions : Was there too a Romanian air asset
involved and if yes what losses they published ,were there
other Luftwaffe losses elsewhere published which I may not
be aware of ?
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  #2  
Old 19th May 2015, 21:13
Nikita Egorov Nikita Egorov is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

You have a chaotic mess of regiments. 438 IAP, 897 IAP and 866 IAP were not guard units. 113 GIAP was far away that time. Forgot to add 611 IAP, 659 IAP, 31 IAP, 116 IAP, 164 IAP.

Soviet fighters confirmed claims were 9 Ju-87s, 17 Me-109s, 18 Fw-190s. Losses recorded as 16 fighters.
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Old 19th May 2015, 22:20
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Yes , definitely true I wrote by heart, though I didn't seek corrections as into
IAP, Guard IAP, Independent IAP terminologies etc, in fact the whole 4 Ukrainian fronts organization
was nothing but a total mess not even Historians from your country fully understand it nowadays.
Therefore making such remark to a non Russian is not appropriate.

113 GIAP was at Cernauti not as far as you indicate and some assets were sent
to back up in Moldova. I didn't forget the other IAP's . May I ask you where did
you get the 9 JU-87's, 17 ME-109 and 18 FW-190s losses from ? I am curious
to know which Opersvodky or source you used as ref ...coze those I red don't indicate such .

In reality those claims were a bunch of baloney pure fantasies, JG52 didn't lose any aircraft on that
day, the SG2 just a JU-87 other confimed losses don't exist and possibly the Romanians
may have not been there, but if they were that would address my initial questions , other
than that AAR didn't operate FW-190 but only to a very limited extent.

Thanks for your remarks though they don't address any of my questions

Last edited by researcher111; 19th May 2015 at 22:51.
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Old 19th May 2015, 22:58
Nikita Egorov Nikita Egorov is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Quote:
Originally Posted by researcher111 View Post
In reality those claims were a bunch of baloney pure fantasies, JG52 didn't lose any aircraft on that
day, the SG2 just a JU-87 other confimed losses don't exist and possibly the Romanians
may have not been there, but if they were that would address my initial questions , other
than that AAR didn't operate FW-190 .

Though your remarks don't answer any of my questions . Thanks anyways
I assume that you have found missing GQ returns for 1944? Congratulations! Otherwise, it would be a little bit precipitate to call something "a bunch of ...fantasies".

My sources are operational reports of 236 IAD, 11 GIAD, 295 IAD, 288 IAD.
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Old 19th May 2015, 23:40
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Definitely fantasies , yeah I red and got lots of material ,though you don't post any facts
any evidences rather jump the gun and rush to conclussions. Spokoynoy Notchy Moskweh
budy zdarov yh budy bagaz tovarish Nikita .


PS : if you need any related Opersvodky I would be glad to lend them to you for a
deeper study . Suggest you also go through history books of the Luftwaffe , cheers .


Last edited by researcher111; 20th May 2015 at 00:14.
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Old 20th May 2015, 08:01
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Hi,

I. Fliegerkorps operations on 20 May 1944 were to the Grigoriopol area (Pl.Qu. 987). Involved on that day were:

- I./J.G. 52, at least three missions
- III./J.G. 52, at least four missions
- IV./J.G. 54, at least five missions, four victories
- I./S.G. 2, at least seven missions
- III./S.G. 2, at least five missions
- I./S.G. 10, at least four missions
- II./S.G. 10, at least one mission, one victory

II./J.G. 52 and II./S.G. 2 were resting and recovering.

III./S.G. 10 reported two aircraft lost and two damaged on non-combat flights, so perhaps it was transferring between airfields.

The German Summarische Verluste data (kindly transcribed by Andreas Brekken) shows only one Ju 87 downed by enemy fighters, and no German fighters or fighter-bombers damaged or lost. So to answer one question, no, there don't seem to have been any additional Luftwaffe losses. Perhaps the Axis victims on this day were all Rumanian? On 18 May 1944 Rumanian fighters were flying sweeps to Grigoriopol, so it's quite possible they were active there again on 20 May.

The above probably isn't much help, but might be of interest.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Last edited by Andrew Arthy; 20th May 2015 at 08:44.
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Old 20th May 2015, 08:45
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Andrew

Thanks for the info, indeed this is more or less in line with my material
and addressing closer my questions . Few remarks , the JU-87 pilot KIA
was with II./SG-2 eventhough the group was resting .As into JG-54 I am
puzzled regarding the records , because according my stuff only IV./JG54
was in Romania unit which arrived in April with only few operational
aircrafts and was stationed at Mamaia at the Black Sea .

Alone JG 52 claimed 18 victories out of which a Boston and a IL-2
though not listed by the Russians neither I can locate them.

5./SG 10 claimed a IL-2 and Stab III./SG 2 claimed a P-39
I could not locate them either .

Most of the Rumanian fighters were dispatched to defend Romania
against 15th AF though I suspect that some of their assets may
have been as well in the area. I can't find any of thier losses on that
day.

The Russian operational records also show 4 German HE-111's shot down
out of which one rammed by a Soviet fighter, which again was as
misleading as rest of their fighter claims. The Soviets also lost two
HSU recepients , a woman pilot , in total 12 pilots against one
Luftwaffe JU-87 loss .

The area of operation was Grigoriopol though not far from there at
Cosnita, Dubosari ,Pererita and Serpeni intensive fights were recorded.

Cheers ,

Last edited by researcher111; 20th May 2015 at 20:21.
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Old 20th May 2015, 11:21
Nikita Egorov Nikita Egorov is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Quote:
Originally Posted by researcher111 View Post
Definitely fantasies , yeah I red and got lots of material ,though you don't post any facts
any evidences rather jump the gun and rush to conclussions. Spokoynoy Notchy Moskweh
budy zdarov yh budy bagaz tovarish Nikita .


PS : if you need any related Opersvodky I would be glad to lend them to you for a
deeper study . Suggest you also go through history books of the Luftwaffe , cheers .
Let us stick to the facts:

1. Your list of regiments in the first post was a mess including units with twisted designation and units not involved in the air battles unfolded on May 20, 1944. I highlighted that.
2. Number of claims that I listed is victories officially confirmed by Soviet side. It has nothing in common with real destroyed planes or actual German losses.
3. It is far from being excluded that all Soviet claims were fantasy. However, the final confirmation of it is burried in German papers. Before loss papers, apart from "Summarische verluste", found, researchers (I hope including the leading specialist on the air war on the East - researcher111) would use such adverbs as "perhaps", "probably", "conceivably" etc. in describing ratio of claims/losses if the picture is not 100% clear.
4. "Spokoynoy Notchy Moskweh
budy zdarov yh budy bagaz tovarish Nikita ."
Sure. Thanks, tovarish researcher111.

PS. Thank you for the offer. I will be waiting for
related opersvodki of 267 IAP
178 GvIAP, 113 GvIAP, 117 GvIAP 5 GvIAP, 438 IAP, 897 IAP
866 IAP and 153 GvIAP to my e-mail address: nicknn@rambler.ru
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Old 20th May 2015, 14:46
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Hi,

Have done some more digging and posted a mini-article about 20 May 1944 here: http://luftwaffe-research-group.org/...may-1944.3280/

It provides more details on IV./J.G. 54 and S.G. 10.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
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Old 20th May 2015, 15:31
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Unfortunatly its a empty link subject to registration and admin approval
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