Clostermann shot down?

[Kutscha]

I don't have his book but while reading another board it was stated that he was shot down while in a Tempest in April 1945. Now the Thomas/Shore Typhoon-Tempest book has no listing of a Tempest loss with a Closterman as a pilot.

Is this an ommision in the book? Or, was not the Tempest a 'loss'?

[Chris Thomas]

Kutscha can you give a precise date? If it was 20 April 45 he was hit by enemy fire in combat with Fw190s and, according to his book, made a wheels-up landing at base (B.112).

The ORB (Form 540) mentions his two claims on this sortie but does not record the belly-landing. His combat report notes two Tempests 'Cat B' (his an another). The details of this sortie are not on the Form 541 in the ORB but earlier in the day he was flying NV994 - known to be JF-E. NV994's record card reports it with 3 Sqn by 15 April 45 but the next entry is '413 Repair and Salvage Unit Cat B 1 Jul 45'; it then went back to Hawker for repair (it was eventually rebuilt as a TT.5)

If this was the 'loss', it was actually just badly damaged and later repaired and therefore does not appear in the list of losses in Typhoon and Tempest Story.
CT

[Erich]

Gents :

the date was 21 April 1945. pilot Leutnant Rudi Wurff of 6./JG 301 dove out of the clouds in his Dora 9 and shot down Clostermann's wingman, went back up into the clouds and according to Pierre came out of the clouds again and shot up his Tempest in which he crash-landed. Clostermann in his regard gave Rudi at least 2-3 kills on this date reporting that with his skillful flying had shot down his whole flight of 4 ~ but has been only given credit for 1 Tempest.

this was from an old re-collection written down back in the 1960's and reproduced in one of Clostermann's books edited

there is a photo of Rudi in Reschke's JG 301 book on page 204 with his Dora 9

E ~

[Kutscha]

Thanks for the reply Chris. Yes, the date sounds correct.

[Kutscha]

Erich you have a PM.

HI, thanks a new one for me, luftwaffe pilots name,
gary

[Erich]

Guys, I wish I could tell you more straight up from Rudi but he has passed away some years back I was told from W. Reschke. He may have had more than 3 kills accorded to him, the other two were B-24's while in the same staffel flying in April and June of 44.

E ~

[Chris Thomas]

Erich, I'd like to introduce some facts into this discussion. Firstly the date: if Clostermann was involved it was 20 April not 21 April. According to the 3 Sqn ORB Clostermann did not fly on operations on 21 April.

Secondly, on the sortie led by Clostermann on 20 April (up 1936, down 2105) only 3 Tempests took part. The ORB does not name the 2 pilots who accompanied him but 'The Big Show' names 'MacIntyre' and 'Gordon'. There was indeed a Flt A.G.McIntyre in 3 Sqn at that time but no 'Gordon' (perhaps Flt G.Duff?). Two Tempests were hit in the combat with Doras but all three returned to base. So who was 'shot down'? ... never mind '3 or 4'!! I checked through the records of all 3 Sqn's Tempests of that period and found another (in addition to NV994 JF-E) that was recorded as Cat B damaged on 20 April 45 (NV978 JF-C). So this fits with Clostermann's official Combat Report which states (under 'Our casuaties') "Two Tempest V Cat B (combat) Pilots unhurt".

If the Rudi Wurff's combat really was on 21 April, it was not with Clostermann but 3 Sqn did lose a Tempest and its pilot on that date, in the early evening (Flt Lt B.C.McKenzie, EJ610 approx 1745 hours), also in the Hamburg area (Clostermann's combat was 10 miles SW). The loss was thought to be due to flak but who can be sure?
CT

[Stig Jarlevik]

Gentlemen

This proves indeed how hard it is to write an accurate history about combat in WW 2.

Reading the new 2 TAF books by Shores/Thomas, we get listings of British losses that day. The list given by Shores/Thomas on April 21st excludes, if I read correctly, all damaged planes that returned, (and I believe that goes for all days) and what happened to them. Clostermann is not even mentioned as having his aeroplane damaged. From the answer by Chris Thomas above it is even not possible from the remaining British documents to know exactly which day the Tempest NV994 was damaged under cat B. It is not made easier that Clostermann himself seems to have been of the opinion his plane was damaged the same day he shot down his two Fw 190, that is the 20th. At least that is what I read out from the article in Avion published after his death. Impossible, it seems, to say if Clostermann's memory played tricks with him and/or his flying records are incomplete.

Only one Tempest was 100% lost on the 21st and that was B C McKenzie. As usual he is claimed to have been hit by flak. If he was Clostermann's wingman is not stated but the article in Avion implies that he was a friend and could well have covered his tail that day... Whatever other losses Clostermann may have remembered in his "edited books" listed by Erich does not seem to be true, or perhaps we have more slightly damaged Tempests around?

There were many eager Luftwaffe pilots still around and many claims were filed. I have no idea how either Clostermann nor Erich has come to the conclusion that it was Wurff that got McKenzie and himself. Clostermann was a very colourful man and a big personallity, but in my opinion also prone to overstate his cases.

Not many pilots or individuals would so completely have listed his idol de Gaulle in such a fashion as he did. How many other pilots have named their aeroplanes after a political leader?

I certainly have not followed the controvery surrounding Clostermann's victories and the by now rather famous letter written by AVM Harry Broadhurst on November 1st, 1945. Why did he write that letter in the first place? I can understand that the French authorities wished to have the records of their citizens which had served with the RAF transferred to themselves, but why would an AVM write a personal letter to that effect? Talking from memory here, I believe Clostermann was also a political figure in the post war French election circus, and what would suit better than an official letter from a high ranking officer in RAF confirming Clostermann as the greatest French ace in WW 2 and of course belonging to the side of de Gaulle?... Would be interesting to know on which side the returning pilots from the Soviet Union stood....

One of our members certainly found out the hard way that not even 60 years later was it possible to debate such a national hero in public and certainly not in writing. I think even today the official stand point is that he did get 33 victories in total, 19 by himself and 14 shared by others.

I think we all have an opinion about Clostermann. Personally I think it was his book more than anything else that made me become interested in aviation, to read history and in the end taking a pilot's license. To put it more rudely, fancy a Froggy being more inspiring than Biggles and the whole lot of other books I read in my youth about Limeys and Yanks , but of course the book was in English....

Cheers
Stig

[Erich]

well I am trying to find the complete mission exerpt as supplied by Clostermann himself. In it he did say R. Wurff was the man behind the 2cm weapons package, as for date yes it may not have been Pierre after all but McKenzie.

Again my info was from the 1960's and then an edit by Pierre for one of his books, which one I cannot remember.

Gentlemen I appreciate your honesty in the matter with back up evidence.

if anyone can supply a small Clostermann sampling of the April mission we could probably get a bit farther ahead or even more confused.

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