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  #1  
Old 12th March 2012, 14:22
bearoutwest bearoutwest is offline
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Luftwaffe Dewoitine 520

Hello All.

Does anyone know of a publication which provides a list of losses of Luftwaffe Jagdschule (or JG101/103/105) Dewoitine 520s in air combat? I'm aware of some Allied fighter gun camera footage of strafing attacks on D520 and LeO 451 aircraft on the ground, but apart from a couple of internet references there doesn't seem to be a lot of easily located data on any air combat between Luftwaffe Dewoitines and Allied aircraft.

Regards, ...geoff
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Old 12th March 2012, 17:32
Khorat Khorat is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Dewoitine 520

the only D-520 losses due to enemy gunfire I find in JG 105 in February 1944, 9th and 13th a D-520 and pilot was lost near airfield Chartres and near Laigle.
Uffz. Woll and Uffz. Barthel killed in the crash.

khorat
Michael Balss
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Old 12th March 2012, 19:16
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Dewoitine 520

I have somewhere in a French magazine a list of losses for Luftwaffe D520s, but I guess they will be few losses in air combat. D520s were not used by the Einsatz Staffel intercepting Allied raids, and were mostly used in schools in S France, so away enough from England to not suffer too much from marauding Allied fighters.

On the other hand D520 was used in combat by both Italian and Bulgarian pilots against USAAF, especially the latter.
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Old 12th March 2012, 19:32
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CJE CJE is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Dewoitine 520

A few were strafed on the ground, as you can see.

Last edited by CJE; 30th September 2015 at 10:44.
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Old 12th March 2012, 23:25
gilles collaveri gilles collaveri is online now
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Re: Luftwaffe Dewoitine 520

good evening Geoff,

I am fully in line with the above answers:

the D520 were mainly used for school training and not against the allied forces.

Most D520 crashes in the South or South West of France are consecutive to student mistakes or mechanical failures.

May I suggest you have a look at Thomas Genth site, well structured, with plenty of beautiful D520 pictures with German markings, Thomas is telling the story of his father: quite fascinating.

http://www.thomasgenth.de/html/jg_101_pau.html

best regards;

GC
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Old 13th March 2012, 14:52
bearoutwest bearoutwest is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Dewoitine 520

Thank you for your responses.

Yes, CJE, I have seen copies of several similar photos – possibly different frames from the same gun camera footage. There are also several photos of strafing attacks on LeO 451 in Luftwaffe colours. Which leads to a side question of: would the Luftwaffe training squadrons flying “advanced trainers” such as the D520 or Bloch 152, 155 aircraft have flown them fully (or partially) armed when there was a chance of encounters with marauding Allied fighters?

Back to the question of Luftwaffe D520s, Gilles, thank you for the pointer to the Thomas Genth site. I chanced upon it while generally net-surfing a few days before asking the question. That site, plus the passage I’ll quote below, formed the question in my mind about possible Luftwaffe D520 combat encounters.

The following is from a description on the aviationartstore website:
(extract)
“ …Horst Petzschler joined the Luftwaffe in April 1941 at the age of nineteen. His enlistment was for twelve years. Basic training is how every enlisted man is introduced to the military. After finishing boot camp and receiving NCO training, in September 1941, Master Sergeant Petzschler reported to A/B-10 Pilot School in Grottkau/O/S. In May Horst was assigned to the JG 101 fighter school squadron located at Villacoublay, which is near Paris. After all, Germany owned France at this point in time.

In May 1943, Horst experienced combat for the first time while still in training school. By chance his fighter school squadron JG101 tangled with Colonel Robert Morgan flying the Memphis Belle and 200 other B-17’s over Guyancourt, north west of Paris. The incident was mostly a taunting harassment by the Luftwaffe flying students with their formation getting the opportunity to get close and actually observe the American formation and get a good look at the defensive guns of the Fortress. Horst would be attacking formations of bombers like the ones he confronted with his Luftwaffe pilot trainees in the next few years. Horst finished his training in the Fw190-A2 at Toulousein southern France. …”

If the description is accurate, what is the likely aircraft used by JG101 in these combat familiarization flights? D520, Bf109, Fw190?

Laurent, hello. I’m more familiar with the Regia Aeronautica and the Bulgarian combat use of the D520. I guess they were acquired for air defence operations, so not surprisingly we find more published information on their activities. With the Luftwaffe, JG101, at least, spent a considerable time around Paris (Villacoublay, etc). The French bases in the south were far away from USAAF (and RAF, etc) bases in England, but not as far from Allied bases in Tunisia, Sicily, and Italy after mid-1943. If you are able to remember which French aviation magazine had the Luftwaffe D520 losses, can you give me a pointer in that direction? There appear to be a lot of losses in Luftwaffe D520s due to accidents – I wonder if the reverse throttle operation of French aircraft was significant in these occurrences?

Michael (Khorat). Thanks for the reference to the pilot names. Is your information something I can follow up on the internet; or is it from a published source (book, magazine, etc)? I’m curious and interested enough to want to continue my research….at least over the next few weeks (maybe months) anyway.

Thanks again.
...geoff
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Old 13th March 2012, 15:27
Ota Jirovec Ota Jirovec is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Dewoitine 520

Hello Geoff,

Back to your original question. A few combats of RAF fighters with Luftwaffe-operated Dewoitines are mentioned in 2nd Tactical Air Force, Volume 1, by Christopher Shores and Chris Thomas, as given in the following excerpt:

"Although 266 Squadron was not a part of 2nd TAF at this time, an event occurred on this date (9 February 1944) which is noteworthy because it provides an opportunity to correct an item included in the authors´ earlier "The Typhoon and Tempest Story". During a Ranger to the Chartres area, Plt Off D. Erasmus of this squadron claimed a Bf 109 shot down. This was in fact a Dewoitine D.520, an ex-Armée de l´Air fighter taken over by the Luftwaffe and used by JG 105, which was based at Chartres. D.520 No 483 was shot down and Uffz. Woll was killed. Four days later (on 13 February 1944) Sqn Ldr G.B. Warnes of 263 Squadron, also a Typhoon unit, claimed another Bf 109 in the same area. Again this was a D.520 of JG 105 - No 664 in which Uffz. Bartl was killed. It is interesting to note that at this time the Luftwaffe operated four such Jagdgeschwader in France, which would continue to operate until August 1944, when there was a general withdrawal back to Germany. The other units were JG 101 at Pau, JG 103 at Chateauroux and JG 107 at Nancy."

Hope this helps,

Ota
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Old 13th March 2012, 15:48
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Dewoitine 520

I have also only those two losses in air combat, which Michael mentioned. Besides them, the following were lost on ground due to strafing or bombing.

1943-07-14 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 487 Fl.Pl. Villacoublay-Süd Bombenwurf. Bruch 20 %.
1943-07-14 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 543 Fl.Pl. Villacoublay-Süd Bombenwurf. Bruch 100 %.
1943-07-14 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 582 Fl.Pl. Villacoublay-Süd Bombenwurf. Bruch 20 %.
1943-07-14 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 669 Fl.Pl. Villacoublay-Süd Bombenwurf. Bruch 100 %.
1943-07-14 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 739 Fl.Pl. Villacoublay-Süd Bombenwurf. Bruch 100 %.
1943-07-14 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 748 Fl.Pl. Villacoublay-Süd Bombenwurf. Bruch 100 %.
1944-02-05 JG 103 Dewoitine 520 719 Fl.Pl. Châteauroux Bombenwurf. Bruch 25 %.
1944-02-05 JG 103 Dewoitine 520 730 Fl.Pl. Châteauroux Bombenwurf. Bruch 50 %.
1944-02-06 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 552 Fl.Pl. Chartres Tiefangriff. Bruch 100 %.
1944-03-02 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 551 Fl.Pl. Chartres Bombenwurf. Bruch 40 %.
1944-03-02 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 578 Fl.Pl. Chartres Bombenwurf. Bruch 100 %.
1944-03-02 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 604 Fl.Pl. Chartres Bombenwurf. Bruch 40 %.
1944-03-02 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 633 Fl.Pl. Chartres Bombenwurf. Bruch 60 %.
1944-03-02 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 716 Fl.Pl. Chartres Bombenwurf. Bruch 40 %.
1944-03-27 I/JG 101 Dewoitine 520 480 Fl.Pl. Pau Bombenwurf. Bruch 15 %.
1944-03-27 I/JG 101 Dewoitine 520 576 Fl.Pl. Pau Bombenwurf. Bruch 35 %.
1944-03-27 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 582 Fl.Pl. Chartres Bombenwurf. Bruch 100 %.
1944-03-27 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 646 Fl.Pl. Chartres Bombenwurf. Bruch 100 %.
1944-03-27 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 734 Fl.Pl. Chartres Bombenwurf. Bruch 100 %.
1944-03-27 JG 105 Dewoitine 520 1584 Fl.Pl. Chartres Bombenwurf. Bruch 100 %.
1944-04-06 Erla-Sonderkdo. Dewoitine 520 590 Fl.Pl. Toulouse-Blagnac Bombenwurf. Bruch 80 %.
1944-08-14 II/JG 101 Dewoitine 520 649 Fl.Pl. Echterdingen Bombenwurf. Bruch 50 %.

Matti
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Old 13th March 2012, 15:50
Khorat Khorat is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Dewoitine 520

Hi Geoff,
my informations coming from the NVM "Namentliche Verlustmeldung" Report of the unit about the loss of the pilot (only done when a pilot was wounded, killed or missing).

Originals are hold by the WASt (Wehrmachtsauskunftsstelle) in Berlin and sadly today not available for public (only informations given to next of kind, and then just a extract of the Original report).

khorat
Michael Balss
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Old 13th March 2012, 22:38
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Dewoitine 520

Matti

The Air Force number 1584 cannot be correct for one of the losses dated 44-03-07. The D.520 production never reached such a number.
Most likely it is No 584 which you mean.

Cheers
Stig
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