Red Stars – Black Cross’s Ally over Poland. Soviet Aviation over East Part of Poland in IX, X 1939, a New Book

[Franek Grabowski]

Nobody denies that both RWD-8 and PWS-26 were primary trainers, something like Tiger Moth and Avro Tutor, respectively. To claim that those 1930s aircraft were essentially WWI designs sounds ridiculous to say the least, however.
Nonetheless you have not answered a very simple question - should be sorties like liaison, reconnaissance and attacking ground targets, all under enemy fire, considered combat missions, and if not, why?

[Vitellius]

Certainly attacking ground targets under enemy fire is a combat action. However combat action carried out by non-combat planes is very odd especially they possessed flight characteristic fairly close to World War I planes.

It is not ridiculous that someone sent those pilots for death like kamikaze...

[lingodog]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

should be sorties like liaison, reconnaissance and attacking ground targets, all under enemy fire, considered combat missions, and if not, why?

If you are in an aircraft that is, or is likely to be, under attack by enemy aircraft or ground fire whilst fulfilling an authorised duty you are undertaking a combat mission (IMHO).

[Franek Grabowski]

Well, if everyone agrees those were combat missions, then how about those flown by unarmed Cubs and Austers? And were the latter like WWI planes?
This was as much the same kind of sorties. The fact is that they were much more dangerous, but those men, finding those aircraft, volunteered for them. That is the nature of war, that it requires risk and sacrifice.

[Ruy Horta]

If you discuss unarmed Cubs and Austers you might as well look at the definition of combat rules by the forces operating them, instead of simply making up our own rules. Most combattants had elaborate systems defining what a constituted combat mission (or its equivalent with or without encountering any enemy forces).

However once you fire at or throw bombs at the enemy the point is mute, regardless if you are flying the most modern or obsolete aircraft in the sky.

[Franek Grabowski]

Oh, British rules constituted combat sortie in quite a straightforward way, and those were later reapplied for Polish AF.

[lingodog]

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

If you discuss unarmed Cubs and Austers you might as well look at the definition of combat rules by the forces operating them, instead of simply making up our own rules. Most combattants had elaborate systems defining what a constituted combat mission (or its equivalent with or without encountering any enemy forces).

However once you fire at or throw bombs at the enemy the point is mute, regardless if you are flying the most modern or obsolete aircraft in the sky.

Sorry Ruy, can't agree with you here. Don't forget that an unarmed machine can correct artillery fall of shot, or radio observations during reconnaissance that brings in strike aircraft. The pilot of an unarmed, unescorted light plane is at considerable risk. I doubt he would consider that a moot point.

[Vitellius]

Some word of explanation is needed here!

Now I fully understand why Poles had to flight combat missions with unarmed or WWI-style planes. That is obvious taken into account their air forces and air defense system were destroyed by Luftwaffe in a first week of fighting. After 7th September Poles were able to shoot down only about 1,5 German combat plane daily on average!

So I do not understand what is this book about??? There were practically no Polish air units capable to fight Soviet air forces in 17th September because deplorable remnants of Polish military aviation escaped to Romania that day!

[Franek Grabowski]

If your point is trolling, then look for another forum. Luftwaffe turned up unable to defeat much weaker Polish air force. The latter, awaited supplies of modern aircraft, that had to arrive via Rumanian ports. Polish airmen were send there to take them over, but the situation prevented it.
The book is about Soviet Air Forces operations over Poland in 1939. Soviet Union was at the time Germany's ally. I think it is obvious from the title of the thread.

[Vitellius]

I think main purpose of your presence here is trolling and twaddling about Polish air forces complete defeat in September 1939. Here you are real German archive data about Luftwaffe losses and victories during all campaign:

- German bombers battle losses before 8th September - 76% of overall losses
- German bombers air victories before 8th September - 73% overall victories
- German fighters battle losses before 8th September- 60% of overall losses
- German fighters air victories before 8th September - 70% overall victories

[Source: Compiled from M. Emmerling "Luftwaffe nad Polską" vol.1 pp. 197-203, vol. 2 pp. 303-308]

As one can see Polish resistance in the air ceased to exist after one week of fighting. Polish aviation lost 75% of its strength being able to destroy only 6% of Luftwaffe planes. Luftwaffe bombers could not find viable targets after 5th September so many bomber squadrons had a free time. It is not surprising because antique Polish fighters could not catch-up German bombers and Polish air defense had only about 50 modern large caliber anti-aircraft guns. Deplorable remnants of Polish military planes had to escape to Romania in 17th September simply because they lost ground support, ammo and PO&L stocks. No Romanian agreement to help transit war materials to Poland was possible at that time due to heavy German diplomatic pressure. In fact Romanian authorities took German side then. Soviet aviation met no real aerial resistance during Red Army intervention aside of several air incidents.

That is full sad truth about poor Polish Aviation crushed by Luftwaffe in a week. Luftwaffe did not need any "Red Stars" ally to successfully accomplish its job!