Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Prev Previous Post   Next Post Next
  #1  
Old 23rd November 2007, 00:04
Sanchez Sanchez is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4
Sanchez is on a distinguished road
Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'

Alexandr Mardanoff (the russian historian) researched with great care almost all victories that had been claimed by Rudolf Mueller (and some other famous aces too). See "Aviamaster" ("Авиамастер"), 2006, № 1,2: "Четыре пишем - два в уме" and "Восемь пишем - два в уме" (can be translated more or less like "We say 'four', we have in mind two" and "We say 'eight', we have in mind two" ).

I hope this information may be very useful.

About so-called 'shared victories'. For example, three pilots of JG 5 shot down 3 enemy aircrafts and claimed 8 victories. In this case we can't surely say who exactly shot down the aircrafts and these actual victories we must call a 'shared victories'.

1 12.9.1941 - I-16 I-16 of 72 SAP, damaged (mladshiy leitenant Plotnikov)
2 17.9.1941 - DB-3 overclaim
3 17.9.1941 - I-153 overclaim
4 27.9.1941 - Hurricane overclaim
5 28.9.1941 - SB-2 SB-2 of 118 RAE
6 2.11.1941 - SB-2 SB-2 of 137 KSBP
7 2.11.1941 - SB-2 SB-2 of 137 KSBP
8 4.11.1941 - I-16 overclaim
9 1.2.1942 - Hudson overclaim
10 16.2.1942 - Hudson Hudson of 48 SQN (FTR)
11 23.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 20 GIAP
12 23.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 20 GIAP (shared victory)
13 23.4.1942 - SB-2 SB-2 of 137 KSBP
14 23.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 768 IAP (serzhant Kolentsov, killed)
15 23.4.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
16 24.4.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
17 26.4.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
18 26.4.1942 - Pe-2 Pe-3 of 95 IAP
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: 5 Pe-3 (twin-engine fighters) - 5 Pe-2 claimed by Mueller, Carganico, Pfranger, Tetzner and Dahn. Additionally Mueller, Carganico and Pfrenger claimed 3 Hurricanes - very strange because Pe-3s operated without any cover.
-----------------------------------------------
19 28.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 2 GKAP (leitenant Godelevich, killed)
20 28.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 2 GKAP (shared victory)
21 28.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 2 GKAP (shared victory)
22 28.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 2 GKAP (shared victory)
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: 4 Hurricanes lost (starshiy leitenant Obuvalov, serzhant Ivanov, serzhant Leshchenko, leitenant Godelevich), 2 Hurricanes damaged. Mueller, Pfranger, Carganico, Tetzner, Schumacher claimed 12 victories (all Hurricanes).
-----------------------------------------------
23 29.4.1942 - I-153 I-153 of 27 IAP (shared victory)
24 29.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 78 IAP, damaged (starshiy leitenant Nikolaev, wounded)
25 29.4.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
26 18.5.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 197 IAP (shared victory)
27 18.5.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 197 IAP (shared victory)
28 18.5.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: 1 P-40, 2 Hurricanes lost (starshiy politruk Seleznyov, starshiy leitenant Yarkin, starshiy leitenant Levchuk). Mueller, Schumacher, Scholz, Doebrich, Stratmann, Klante, and Kirchmayr claimed 11 victories (10 Hurricanes and 1 P-40).
-----------------------------------------------
29 19.5.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
30 19.5.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
31 19.5.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
32 25.5.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
33 26.5.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of VVS 14 Army
34 26.5.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of VVS 14 Army
35 26.5.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of VVS 14 Army
36 28.5.1942 - Hurricane P-39 of 19 GIAP (kapitan Kutachov) (shared victory)
37 28.5.1942 - P-40 overclaim
38 30.5.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 2 GIAP, damaged
39 2.6.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 768 IAP or 2 GKAP (shared victory)
40 2.6.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 768 IAP or 2 GKAP (shared victory)
41 13.6.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 78 IAP (shared victory)
42 13.6.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
43 13.6.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: 1 Hurricane lost (starshiy leitenant Shalayev, belly-landing). Mueller, Ehrler, Doebrich, Todt claimed 6 Hurricanes.
-----------------------------------------------
44 17.6.1942 - I-180 overclaim
45 17.6.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 769 GIAP (shared victory)
46 17.6.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 769 GIAP (shared victory)
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: 3 Hurricanes lost (mladshiy leitenant Kotov, starshiy serzhant Bogush, serzhant Olin). The pilots of 5, 6, 8./JG 5 claimed 13 victories.
-----------------------------------------------
47 23.6.1942 - I-16 I-16 of 27 SAP (starshiy serzhant Mal'chenko, killed)
48 4.8.1942 - I-16 overclaim
49 4.8.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
50 4.8.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: no losses
-----------------------------------------------
51 13.8.1942 - I-153 I-15bis of 27 IAP, damaged (serzhant Laptev)
52 13.8.1942 - I-16 I-16 of 27 IAP (serzhant Lebedev, baled out)
53 13.8.1942 - MiG-3 overclaim
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: 1 I-16 lost, 1 I-15bis damaged. Mueller, Ehrler, Bartels, Kaiser, Dylewski and other pilots claimed 15 (!!!) victories.
-----------------------------------------------
54 21.8.1942 - Yak-1 overclaim
55 21.8.1942 - I-180 overclaim
56 21.8.1942 - Yak-1 overclaim
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: 2 LaGG-3 lost (mladshiy leitenant Samarkov, mladshiy leitenant Bagrayev), 2 I-16 damaged. Mueller, Ehrler and other pilots claimed 14 victories.
-----------------------------------------------
57 22.8.1942 - Fighter overclaim
58 22.8.1942 - Fighter overclaim
59 22.8.1942 - Fighter overclaim
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: no losses
-----------------------------------------------
60 25.8.1942 - Yak-1 Yak-1 of 20 IAP (serzhant Sulimov, killed) (shared victory)
61 25.8.1942 - Yak-1 overclaim
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: 1 Yak-1 lost. Mueller and other pilots claimed 5 victories (3 Yak-1, 1 MiG-3, 1 P-40).
-----------------------------------------------
62 29.8.1942 - E/a overclaim
63 29.8.1942 - E/a overclaim
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: no losses, no combats (!). So how the hell Mueller could claim his victories???
-----------------------------------------------
64 2.9.1942 - Fighter Fighter of 27 IAP or VVS 14 Army (shared victory)
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: 1 P-40, 1 I-16 lost (serzhant Silayev, serzhant Yemelyanov), 2 P-40, 1 I-16 damaged. Mueller, Doebrich, Stolz, Bartels, Kaiser, Herzog, Norz, Kunz and other pilots claimed 17 (!) victories.
-----------------------------------------------
65 4.9.1942 - E/a shared victory
66 8.9.1942 - Fighter Hurricane of VVS 14 Army (shared victory)
67 9.9.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 837 IAP (shared victory)
68 9.9.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
69 9.9.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
70 9.9.1942 - Hurricane overclaim
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: 1 Hurricane, 1 P-39 (kapitan Kuligin - belly-landing, mladshiy leitenant Krivosheev - killed while ramming enemy fighter). Mueller, Ehrler, Doebrich, Scharff, Bock, Herzog, Bartels claimed 13 victories (11 Hurricanes, 1 P-40, 1 P-39).
-----------------------------------------------
71 15.9.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 837 IAP (shared victory)
72 15.9.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 837 IAP (shared victory)
73 15.9.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 837 IAP (shared victory)
74 15.9.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 837 IAP (shared victory)
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: 5 Hurricanes lost. Mueller, Doebrich, Weissenberger and other pilots claimed 17 victories (12 Hurricanes, 5 P-40)
-----------------------------------------------
75 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory
76 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory
77 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory
78 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory
79 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory
80 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory
81 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: 4 P-40, 2 Hurricanes, 2 LaGG-3, 1 Yak-1 lost. Mueller and other pilots claimed 20 victories.
-----------------------------------------------
82 8.2.1943 - E/a overclaim
83 8.2.1943 - E/a overclaim
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: no losses
-----------------------------------------------
84 17.2.1943 - Hurricane Hurricane of 966 IAP
85 II.1943 - E/a -
86 II.1943 - E/a -
87 21.2.1943 - P-39 Hurricane of 760 IAP
88 1943 - E/a -
89 1943 - E/a -
90 1943 - E/a -
91 1943 - E/a -
92 13.3.1943 - P-39 500th victory of 6./JG 5; overclaim
-----------------------------------------------
Day losses: no losses. Mueller, Fahldick and Weissenberger claimed 4 victories (2 P-40, 2 P-39).
-----------------------------------------------
In total: 17 actual 'kills' + 3 damaged + 29 'shared victories' + 37 overclaims
Reply With Quote
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
KG51 Me 262 claims / confirmed kills & Me 262 9K+BH Roger Gaemperle Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 4 27th November 2017 22:44
Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed Black baron Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 42 4th March 2011 09:18
Percentage of Verifiable Victories of Various Aces –Updates & Recommendations Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 25 9th March 2010 03:39
Percentage of Verifiable Victories of Various Aces –Updates & Recommendations Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 30th September 2006 10:05
Claims identites Adam Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 27th May 2005 01:05


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net