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  #21  
Old 1st December 2007, 09:13
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'

Mark,

Thanks, for your summation on the Soviet loss records that you’ve encountered in your research. It was as I suspected, I doubt any record system is 100% correct 100% of the time. You stated that the records get very accurate in 1942, in your opinion when do you believe they became very accurate, early mid or late 1942? I’m just working out for myself to what degree of confidence the reported information is correct.

I look forward to seeing your post the 151 Wing RAF/Luftwaffe claims summary.

Regards,

Craig...
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  #22  
Old 1st December 2007, 23:31
markjsheppard markjsheppard is offline
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Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'

Craig

Here is the information.

Kills to 151 Wing in Russia.

81 Squadron.
12th Sept Z5122 P/O 'Bas' Bush. Bf110 Damaged.

12th Sept Z4018 Sgt Haw Bf109E Destroyed.
Z5157 P/O Walker Bf109E Destroyed.
Z4006 Sgt Waud. Bf109E Destroyed.*
Z4006 Sgt Waud. He126 Probable*
Sgt Smith was damaged/could not open cockpit and crashlanded and was killed.

17th Sept Z5208 Sgt Haw. Bf109E Destroyed.
Z4017 P/O Bush Bf109E Destroyed*
Z5207 Sgt Anson 1/3
Z5228 Sgt Sims. 1/3 Bf109E Destroyed.*
BD792 S/Ldr Rook. 1/3

26th Sept Z5227 P/O Edmiston. Bf109F Probable
BD818 P/O Holmes Bf109F? Destroyed
Z4006 Sgt Reed Bf109F? Destroyed.
F is more likely an E with a pointed spinner?

27th Sept Z5227 P/O Edmiston. Bf109F? Destroyed.
Z4018 Sgt Haw. Bf109F? Destroyed.

6th October. Z5207 F/Lt Rook. Bf109F Destroyed.
BD792 S/Ldr A H Rook/Furneaque Ju88 Destroyed*
BD792 S/Ldr Rook/P/O Ramsay Ju88 Probable
Z5157 P/O D Ramsay/134 a/c Ju88 Probable
Z5228 F/O McGregor Ju88 Probable
Z5209 P/O Walker Ju88 Probable
BD822 Sgt Bishop Ju88 Damaged.
Z4006 Sgt Crewe Ju88 Damaged

134 Squadron.
6th October Z3978 P/O Cameron Ju88 Probable
Z3978 P/O Cameron Ju88 Damaged
Z5134 Sgt Gould Ju88 Damaged
Z5236 F/O Elkington/Barnes Ju88 Destroyed *


* Confirmed in Luftwaffe loses.
_____ Confirmed as hitting the ground by independent RAF pilots, not Russians Observation Corp


Absturz- Hurricanes151 Wing v Bf109E’s I/JG77.

12th September 1941
One Bf110 damaged.(Diary report)
1.(Z)/JG77 Bf110 Jagerbeschuss Oblt F/ Lt M

Three Bf109E’s and one Hs126 were claimed as shot down.
German Luftwaffe records indicate the following:
(1) 1./JG77 Bf109E-7 W.Nr1075 ‘Gelb 6’ by Liza-Bucht, Luftkampf, 100% Ltn Eckerdt v. d. Lühe gefallen.
(2) 1./JG77 Bf109E-7 W.Nr4078 by Nicht Gemeldet,. Notlandung infolge Motorstorung. 100%.
(3)1./(H)32 Hs126 W.Nr3461 by location Lizabucht. Reason Jagerbeschuss Air Combat 30%.

17th September 1941
Three Bf109E’s were claimed as shot down.
German Luftwaffe records indicate the following:
(1) 14./JG77 Bf109E-3 W.Nr4004 ‘Rot 6’ by Zapad Liza. Jagerbeschuss 100%. Fw Joseph Stiglmair Vermißt.
(2) 14./JG77 Bf109E-7 W.Nr6124 by Bereslawi, Jagerbeschuss-20% (recorded as 4./JG77).

26th September 1941
Two Bf109E-7’s were claimed as shot down and one probable.
No German Luftwaffe records indicate any damage to Bf109’s on this day.

27th September 1941
Two Bf109F’s (E-7’s?) were claimed as shot down.
No German Luftwaffe records indicate any damage to Bf109’s on this day.

6th October 1941
One Bf109E’s was claimed as shot down. (A flight of six of I/JG77 were escorting the Ju88’s)
(German Luftwaffe records for the 6th October indicate the following -
(1) 3./KG30 Ju88A5, W.Nr626, 4D+LL. Location Unbekannt-unknown, Unbekannt-unknown, 100%. Crew missing. (West of Veanga)
(2) 3./KG30 Ju88A5, W.Nr4155 4D+KL. Location Unbekannt-unknown, Unbekannt-unknown, 100%. Crew missing. (West of Vaenga)
(3) 2./KG30 Ju88 A5, W.Nr292 4D+?K. Location Fl. Pl Petsamo-. Brauchlandung nach Jagerbeschuss, 100%.

Two Ju88's crashed behind front line in the tundra and a number of members of crew were capture. Aircraft were basically undamaged. Where are those aircraft now!

If anyone can add anything more to this, then that would be very interesting. Shame there is no JG77/KG30 day log records adding more information.

regards

Mark
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  #23  
Old 3rd December 2007, 09:15
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'

Thanks Mark

besides the loss of Sgt Smith was there any other combat casualties by 151 Wing, including damaged aircraft?

Regards,

Craig...
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  #24  
Old 3rd December 2007, 11:02
markjsheppard markjsheppard is offline
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Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'

Craig

Couple force landed when they arrived having damaged there undercarriage taking off from HMS Argus.

Lots of tipping over and breaking propellors.

One flying accident. 134 Sqn take with two crewman on tailplane. They were killed and pilot seriously injured.

Few bullet holes but nothing more.

regards

Mark
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  #25  
Old 3rd December 2007, 14:48
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'

TO MARK:
It was fascinating to read out your articles on the discovery of the P-39, P-40 and Hurricane! I do have no words to thank you for sharing it with the readers and members of the Forum. I was astonished by the PROFESSIONALIST way you do write, the magnificent photographs and the incredible work of Archeology. Certainly a MUST!
Please ADVISE me if you ever publish a book with this kind of article, ok? I would be very pleased to acquire one myself...and please, keep continuing this incredible work you have been doing. I do congratulate you and all the Russian Members of the TEAM.
Yes, there should be MORE books in English available on the Market about WW2 Aviation ( their side of the History ). Tell them about that...
Yours ( with a Huge respect and admiration for the valuable and incredible work )
Adriano
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  #26  
Old 3rd December 2007, 15:45
markjsheppard markjsheppard is offline
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Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'

Andriano

I have thought about this for a while having been involved in most of the recoveries from the Russian North (and elsewhere). Without the help of TOCH and some dedicated researchers - experts in there own fields it would not be anywhere near as complete and interesting! Kjetil Aakra profiles also bring the aircraft to life. I have thought about a book covering the recoveries/history and restoration where applicable of 25 plus recoveries. With each aircraft covering 5-7 pages, photos and profiles and all well researched, might be a nice little read.

Its getting the time, busy work, house renovation, wife and two youngish children there is not a lot of extra time!

From memory.

Aircraft included -Russia
Bf109 3579
Bf109 1407
Bf109 3523
Bf109F 8341
Bf109F 10132
Bf109 G-6 Swiblosee

Bf110C 3523
Bf110E-2 4502
Bf110F-2 5052

Fw190 1227

Fw189 2100

Hurricane P3351/DR393
Hurricane Z5227
Hurricane Z5252

Hampden P1344

P40C 41-11390
Tomahawk IIB AK255/AK295
P40E 41-13570
P40K 42-10083
P40K 42-10256

Bell P39Q 44-1911

Yak 1 1342
MiG-3 No1
MiG-3 No2

Norway
Fw190A3
Halifax NA337
Arado 96
Ju88 A1
Ju88 A5
He111

Germany
Fw190D-9 (Schwerin)
P47 42-29150 'Dottie Mae'.

Thats around 30 I have been involved with, most published (articles) with profiles from Kjetil for most. What do you recon. Worth publishing?

I also have 95% of the research on 151 Wing - July 1941-Dec 1941. 5 lever arch files or diaries/letters/log books and photos. Located 73 out of 76 pilots/officers or families with the unit, have a large majority of the log books and a few hundred photos. Been sat there for 10 years - again no time to write the book even though the research has been done. I kinda have not continued knowing I have still to locate 3 families - unfinished work!

Again, thanks for your kind words.

regards

Mark

PS - assume you saw the P47 story.
http://www.dottiemaep-47.com/history.htm
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  #27  
Old 21st December 2007, 16:17
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Evgeny Velichko Evgeny Velichko is offline
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Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád View Post
that German pilots must have identified some of the Soviet fighters types as 'DB-3', or 'SB-2', as they almost regularily overclaimed as regards the Soviet fighters, but quite often they actually underclaimed as regards the VVS bombers.

So, there is still lots and lots to research and publish on the air war on the Eastern Front...
Yep

For example, I./ZG 1 claimed some "IL-4" in late 1942 to mid 1943 on Ostfront. Example - 13 july 1943, whrn Hptm.Hermann shot down Il-2 of 1st squadron leader of 198 shap - the same aircombat when Blechschmitt was shot down by Lt. Yefimov, further 2xHSU. But Hermann noted Il-2 as "Il-4", as it scored in "LW abschusselist".

But in real that "Il-4" were the same as "Il-2m.Hs." or "Il-5" or "Il-7", and NOT the real IL-4 (2x Engined bomber). It seems german pilots so called just "next modification of Il-2"
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