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Old 16th October 2019, 22:55
TigerTimon TigerTimon is offline
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Question Me 262 KG 51 over Grave 2nd November 1944

Good evening,

In the Messerschmitt Me 262 Combat Diary by Foreman there is an event where a Me 262 A-2a flown by Hauptmann Winkel was hit by AAA over B.82 Grave airfield. He was injured in the process but managed to safely land back at Rheine airfield.
Now I am wondering what the time of this event may have been.
Are there reports by AAA units of the RAF Regiment in any archive, or national archive?
Thanks in advance.

Kind regards,

Timon
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Old 17th October 2019, 15:05
Karoband Karoband is offline
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Re: Me 262 KG 51 over Grave 2nd November 1944

Hello Timon,

The information in Combat Diary may be out of date.

According to Jan Horn, Das Flurschaden-Geschwader, (2010), p. 178, four Me 262 A-2as of 3./KG 51 took off at 16:23 hrs. German time on 2 November 1944, including Hauptmann Eberhard Winkel in Me 262 A-2a (9K+CL; Werk-Nr. 170 010).

Robert Forsyth with Eddie J. Creek, Me 262 Bomber and Reconnaissance Units, (2012), p. 36 give the same account as Horn:

"On 2 November, Hauptmann Winkel flew his 40th combat mission in the Me 262. He was one of four pilots to take off from Rheine to strike at various airfields, including Grave, using AB 250/SD 10 combinations. As the jets flew over Grave, they encountered a formation [Horn says 14] of enemy fighters, probably Tempests of No. 274 Sqn. Winkel positioned himself behind a British fighter and opened fire, but did not notice that another enemy machine had manoeuvred behind him and was firing its guns. Winkel received strikes to his cockpit, whereupon the canopy broke away. The Me 262's instrument panel also shattered and fell apart and Winkel suffered splinters in his head. Nevertheless, he somehow managed to fly the aircraft back to Rheine."

Horn says that one of the four aircraft landed at 16:57 hrs.

Hopefully, the above will be of some help.

Jim
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Old 17th October 2019, 16:34
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Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
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Re: Me 262 KG 51 over Grave 2nd November 1944

Attached are the orders of 1 November for attacks by I./KG 51 on the Grave area, as deciphered by Bletchley Park. Orders for 6 November were "as for 1 November", so it looks as if the targets stayed the same for several days.
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File Type: jpg Screenshot 2019-10-17 at 14.29.28.jpg (277.4 KB, 34 views)
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Old 17th October 2019, 21:14
TigerTimon TigerTimon is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Me 262 KG 51 over Grave 2nd November 1944

Hello Jim and Nick,

thank you very much for the detailed information. I was actually reading Kampfgeschwader "Edelweiss" (1991) by Wolfgang Dierich yesterday, and the information regarding enemy fighters is also supported by him, with a picture of Hauptmann Winkel with a head bandage due to the injuries sustained.

P.S. Nick, you got a wonderful website. I especially like the decoded ULTRA messages, very interesting.

Kind regards,

Timon Legemaat
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