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  #1  
Old 24th October 2005, 19:00
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Me 323 'Gigant' rudder markings

Hi folks,

Could anybody tell me the tail marking-system of the Me323 ‘Gigant’ and Ju 52 cargo planes? I noticed that the rudder of these planes were often marked with 3 different letters/numbers as X2D, etc.

Just two examples for the Me 323 Gigant:

Fuselage code: C8+GE, – tail code: X2D
Fuselage code: ??+??, – tail code: X1G

Any idea?
Thanks,

Gabor
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Old 24th October 2005, 20:45
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Peter D Evans Peter D Evans is offline
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Re: Me 323 'Gigant' rudder markings

These were tactical codes developed by the Luftwaffe during the Russian campaign thru until 1943 when they were gradually phased out. According to "Luftwaffe Codes Markings and Units 1939-45" by Barry Rosch, the system developed some variations, but generally they identified the parent formation, the Staffel the aircraft was assigned to, and the individual aircraft. For example:

Ju52 coded 4V+KP with H2K on the rudder:
- the code 4V+KP identified the parent formation as KGrzbV 106
- the H stood for the commanding officer of KGrzb 106, Major Heyer
- the 2 indicated that the aircraft belonged to the 2nd Staffel
- the K was the individual aircraft letter

...there are however gaps with the information and some contradictions to the system make the task of deciphering some of the codes very difficult. To take the first example you quote:


Me323 coded C8+GE with the tail code X2D
- the code C8+GE identified the parent formation as I./KGrzbV 323
- the X stood for an unknown commanding officer
- the 2 indicated that the aircraft belonged to the 2nd Staffel
- the D should indicate the individual aircraft letter... but the code you quote has the aircraft letter as a G

... further detective work required

Last edited by Peter D Evans; 24th October 2005 at 21:54.
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  #3  
Old 24th October 2005, 20:57
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Andy Mitchell Andy Mitchell is offline
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Re: Me 323 'Gigant' rudder markings

Gabor,

Give "Transporter - wer kennt sie schon!" by Karl Koessler a read (published 1976 by Alba Buchverlag - ISBN3-87094-410-2
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Old 24th October 2005, 22:38
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Me 323 'Gigant' rudder markings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Mitchell
Gabor,

Give "Transporter - wer kennt sie schon!" by Karl Koessler a read (published 1976 by Alba Buchverlag - ISBN3-87094-410-2
Gábor, I have that small book. I can help you with it, if you wish.
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Old 25th October 2005, 00:55
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Re: Me 323 'Gigant' rudder markings

Gabor,

According to the appendices in H. Dabrowski's "Messerschmitt 321/323" (Schiffer) p234 - an Me 323 with the code C8+GE and a tactical code of X1V crashed at Odessa III with 70 soldiers on board (63 killed).

On the same page of the book he records C8+HE (tactical X2D) wnr 130041 destroyed in bombing raid on Kecskemet and notes that a photo exists.

Hope that this helps.
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Old 25th October 2005, 03:32
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Me 323 'Gigant' rudder markings

Hi Peter,

and thanks for your very detailed explanation, I really appreciate it. Well, well the codes of the 'Gigant' I mentioned were C8+GE, X2D for sure, maybe it was a replaced rudder, or the fuselage code had been overpainted, I do not know. Anyway, I have a series of some breathtaking photos of this 'little' bird at Szarvas, Hungary, - only days before she was destroyed at Kecskemét airfield on June 14, 1944 by the P-38J Lightnings of the 82nd FG. Her nickname was 'R4711 Horrido!' with a nice emblem on her nose. Unfortunatelly I do not know her WNr. It is very interesting that the another Gigant, C8+HE was also marked with X2D. Were there 2 Me 323 planes destroyed at once with the same rudder code, or C8+HE is just a mistyping? C8+GE was X2D for sure, I have the photos! BTW, what Me 323 planes were destroyed at Kecskemet on June 14, 1944? Fuselage, rudder codes, WNr? If you give me your e-mail, I'll send you the pic series of C8+GE/X2D

Thanks,

Gabor
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Old 25th October 2005, 05:41
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Me 323 'Gigant' rudder markings

Gábor, are you familiar with the excellent article published recently (July 2005) in the Hungarian 'Aranysas' magazine about the Me 323s in Hungary? The author is Zoltán Jákfalvy.
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Old 25th October 2005, 08:55
Bert Hartmann Bert Hartmann is offline
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Wink Re: Me 323 'Gigant' rudder markings

Take a look here,

http://www.luftarchiv.de/flugzeugbau/kenungen2.htm

I had worked with sven carlsen and karl kössler on that subject. So it is proof.

Horrido,
Bert
www.luftarchiv.de
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Old 26th October 2005, 19:47
Seaplanes Seaplanes is offline
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Re: Me 323 'Gigant' rudder markings

I can list the following Me 323 with I./T.G.5 on 15.07.1943
W.Nr. 1142 Stammkz. RF+XP Unit code C8+AB Tactical code X 1 C
W.Nr. 1219 Stammkz. DT+IS Unit code C8+MB Tactical code Y 1 J
W.Nr. 1229 Stammkz. SG+RC Unit code C8+NB Tactical code Y 1 B
W.Nr. 1262 Stammkz. VM+IS Unit code C8+LB Tactical code X 1 L
W.Nr. 1269 Stammkz. VM+IQ Unit code C8+CB Tactical code X 1 G

W.Nr. 1129 Stammkz. RF+XC Unit code C8+JE Tactical code X 1 S
W.Nr. 1249 Stammkz. SG+RW Unit code C8+OE Tactical code X 1 P
W.Nr. 1252 Stammkz. SG+RZ Unit code C8+SE Tactical code X 1 E
W.Nr. 1257 Stammkz. VM+IE Unit code C8+ME Tactical code X 1 Y
W.Nr. 1264 Stammkz. VM+IK Unit code C8+QE Tactical code X 1 I
W.Nr. 1268 Stammkz. VM+IP Unit code C8+TE Tactical code X 1 F

W.Nr. 1127 Stammkz. RF+XA Unit code C8+BF Tactical code X 1 A
W.Nr. 1136 Stammkz. RF+XJ Unit code C8+NF Tactical code X 1 T
W.Nr. 1222 Stammkz. DT+IV Unit code C8+FF Tactical code X 1 K
W.Nr. 1255 Stammkz. VM+IC Unit code C8+LF Tactical code X 1 Q
W.Nr. 1271 Stammkz. VM+IS Unit code C8+AF Tactical code X 1 B

W.Nr. 1227 Stammkz. SG+RA Unit code C8+AG Tactical code Y 1 M
W.Nr. 1228 Stammkz. SG+RB Unit code C8+AP Tactical code Y 1 H
W.Nr. 1256 Stammkz. VM+ID Unit code C8+CG Tactical code Y 1 A
W.Nr. 1267 Stammkz. VM+IO Unit code C8+DG Tactical code X 1 N
W.Nr. 1270 Stammkz. VM+IR Unit code C8+EG Tactical code X 1 O

This is taken directly from the original report from Transportfliegerführer 1,
Aufstellung der Kennzeichen und Werk-Nummern, Stand vom 15.7.43.
The tactical code X 1 -- was used by I./K.G.z.b.V. 323
The tactical code Y 1 -- was used by II./K.G.z.b.V. 323
Apparently, the I./T.G.5 (previously I./K.G.z.b.V. 323) had aircraft from both Gruppen I. and II./K.G.z.b.V. 323.
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  #10  
Old 22nd November 2005, 03:19
Fernando Estanislau Fernando Estanislau is offline
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Re: Me 323 'Gigant' rudder markings

Were these rudder tactical markings painted in yellow... or white?

Any of you have an idea if both colors were used..and why?

Thank you all in advance.
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