He 219 found in Denmark !!!

[SES]

Thanks a lot.
bregds
SES

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Hello Michaël,

Picture 3 shows the two, US profile type tyres in the bay aft the engine compartment whereas picture 4 and 10 not only shows the curved ammonition feeding channels for the MK108 but also the pressure bottle to load/reload these MK108's.

Drawings of the same construction in the Ersatzteilliste He219A-7 convinced me that Kim has really found a He219. The damage is such that the He219 must have made a real impact, not an emergency landing on water (which, I guess, no one risked when you have ejection seats to get you out).

I would like to stress the point that I promised Kim to stay silent about this find but now that it is broadcasted, I can speak out freely with a sense of relieve, because I don't want keep secrets for my Danish friends like you and Jörn.

All the best, Marcel

[SES]

Hi Marcel,
Thank you very much for your comments, and I'll take your word for the identification of the parts, albeit it looks like a Picasso to me.
kind regards
Michaël

[Brian Bines]

As Marcel says photo 3 shows the twin wheel undercarriage of a He 219 which along with his other comments would appear to confirm type identification. On Soren's site 'Airwar Over Denmark' he described the shooting down of He219 A-O 190107 on 21-5-1944 and says the Mustang of F/Lt Shirreff (19 Sqd) was hit by return fire from the rear gunner (Bf Uffz Tants) of what they initially thought was a 'Leo 45'. The aircraft attacked being the He219 190107 crashing south of Herning. If this He219 had a rear gun fitted is it possible MG15s may have been field-fitted on some aircraft for use by the Bf. Would the use of this older weapon offer a quick and simple fitting and the saddle drums would not have needed ammo boxes being fitted in the rear cockpit, as for later belt feed weapons, assuming any such fitting may have restricted the ejection seat. I know this does not help with the identity of the aircraft Kim found, but as this is a Discussion group the finding of a MG15 saddle drum is in itself of interest and queried by Kim.

[ju55dk]

Glad at last to see photo evidence. I agree that it most likely is a He 219. Now the hunt for a possible candidate goes on.

Junker

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Hello Brian,

Thanks for your interesting remarks. The sole doubt I have by 'rear fire' is that this He219 had a two men crew (Tampke and Tants) so we must assume that Tants did not hide himself somewhere in the fuselage, but stayed neatly on his seat. Is the damage to the Mustang and/or pilot specified ? Bullet holes or could it be damage from debris?

The first, pre A-0 produced He219 prototypes had a bulged rear canopy with an oval shaped hole/window which would enable to house a MG for rear defense. However: Wnr.190107 was the 36th A-0 produced He219 from Schwechat and had the stretched, more aerodynamically shaped rear canopy most of us know.
In May 1944 the II./NJG 1 had some He219's too but 190107 was not among them and therefore not having the field modification as discussed above in one of my other postings.

I am still learning about the He219, its developement and history each day, but up to this day I never came across such canopies with rear firing MG's. Perhaps (in the heat of the fight) front fire has been mistaken for rear fire?

Just loud thinking but given our present knowledge, a He219A-0 with rear firing MG seems unlikely but please feel welcome to correct me if I am wrong.

Best regards, Marcel

[ju55dk]

It's higly unlikely that He 219 A-0 in Grove summer 1944 had any rear MG. The P-51 must have been hit by debries. It's not the only case where fighters report rear fire also by attacks on training aircraft who normally did not carry guns/ammunition untill late in the war. In Denmark training aircraft with guns started carrying ammo around late october 1944.

Junker

[SES]

Hi,
I am now fairly convinced that the wreck is a He219. I base it on the twin wheels, the front of a DB 603 and the feed for the Mk108.
bregds
SES

[SES]

Re post#34 by Brian.
IMHO there is no room for a MG 15 in the rear cokpit of a two seater.
bregds
SES

[Brian Bines]

Hi Guys thanks for the answers and photos the 'Airwar Over Denmark ' just says 'The rear gunner of the ''Leo 45'' fired back and hit White 1 in the starboard mainplane which caught fire, Shirreff managed to put out the fire by using up all his ammo'' ( from combat report ?). The book Fighter Squadron mentions the attack and damaging of one ''Leo 45'' and the shooting down of another, it reports the loss of F/L Bird to a Bf109, and F/Sgt Warren as missing but does not mention the damage to Shirreff's aircraft which returned. As Junker says the damage to the Mustang could hve been debris, hopefully an identity for this 219 can be found and the reason for the MG15 magazine,

Regards

Brian Bines