Amiot no 93 GB I/34 October 1939

[Andrei Demjanko]

Hello

This aircraft usually listed in secondary sources as lost on 15 October. However Lagebericht West Nr. 57 says this aircraft was shot down in the early hours of 17 October. I am curious about what Armée de l'Air records says about the loss of this aircraft?

PS of course Amiot 143 no 94 is the plane in question

[rof120]

According to Paul Martin in the book "Invisibles vainqueurs" (1991) Amiot 143 N° 94 (not 95) was shot down by Flak on 15 October. Martin used the French air force archive at Vincennes. 5 men POW including 2 wounded.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Now this is becoming interesting

According to Ribeiro/Ledet in their L'Amiot 143 (Lela Presse)

No 93:E-320 GB III/21 in Oct 1936; 14 GAA in July 1937 to 27.3.1939; GB I/34 in March 1939; shot down by Flak during the night 14/15.10.1939 and its crew captured in Germany.

No 94: E-321 GB III/21 in Oct 1936; 14 GAA in July 1937 to 27.3.1939; 34 EB in March 1939 (probably a misprint for 34 GB?); surveyed (authors use the word recensé) 20.7.1940 at the base Bergerac and classified as not available for flight (to be repaired); stored at Clermont-Ferrand (no info regarding the beginning of its storage) but the report was dated 5.9.1942

From available crash photos it is not possible to see which one it is.

Before this topic came up, I was not aware of this discrepancy between the two sources. Guessing/thinking aloud, I can only suppose there is something wrong with the French records. It would not surprise me if they do say No 94 was the aircraft shot down by Flak, but then other records makes No 94 pop up again. Possibly, since No 93 and No 94, followed each other to every unit until one of them was lost, Ribeiro/Ledet figured it had to be No 93 that was in fact lost and not No 94? A printing/writing error back in 1939?

I don't know this Lagebericht Andrei refers to, but it seems it is mistaken with regard to the date this incident happened.
Fledgling Eagles (Shores et al) also list 14/15 Oct
The BoF then and now (Cornwell) says the same thing, incidentally giving No 94 as well. If he has looked into any French archives or lifted it from previous sources, I don't know.

Cheers
Stig

[Andrei Demjanko]

Thank you both for your responces

It appears that serial of this aircraft is another uncertainity.

While searching for any clues I've found a table which show both no 93 and no 94 as lost in very similar circumstances, the latter without a specified date. In fact it is the same incident that listed there as the cause of loss of no 93 and no 94 as there were no other crashes of Amiot 143 in Germany with the capture of the whole crew
https://www.passionair1940.fr/Armee%...toriques-2.htm

But only one aircraft was lost.

The place of the crash not near Mainz as stated but near Burgfarrnbach.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Andrei

The French site you list is usually quite good. Very useful in fact.
However with the No 93 and No 94 we are interested in, they are clearly confused, and if I have to choose I would take the Lela Presse book.

Cheers
Stig

[rof120]

Stig:

"No 94: E-321 GB III/21 in Oct 1936; 14 GAA in July 1937 to 27.3.1939; 34 EB in March 1939 (probably a misprint for 34 GB?);"

Probably not for the number - here 34 - following / is the number of the escadre (wing) comprised of several groupes like I/34 or II/34. EB means Escadre de bombardement, GB Groupe…

The Lela book is much more recent than Martin's data (25 years or more) so possibly it contains more accurate details (?).

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by rof120

Stig:
Probably not for the number - here 34 - following / is the number of the escadre (wing) comprised of several groupes like I/34 or II/34. EB means Escadre de bombardement, GB Groupe…

The Lela book is much more recent than Martin's data (25 years or more) so possibly it contais more accurate details (?).

Not sure I follow you here.
If you look at No 93 it was assigned to GB I/34 and since I am pretty convinced these two aircraft followed each other to GB 34 as well, I think also No 94 went to the same unit, but the remaining records only says GB 34 and not I/34.

I know nothing about the French Escadre/Wing system, but it makes little sense to me to assign an aircraft (unless a hack) to such a unit.
Since I don't have any French order of Battle for Sep 1939 it seems these Escadre were gone on 10 May 1940 since Jean Liron and Raymond Danel states the wings were called Groupement de Chasse, Bombardement etc followed by a number. For instance GB I/34 belonged to Groupement de Bombardement No 9. No mentioning of any wing with number 34.

Yes, the Lela Presse is much more recent, but that does not make it gospel just because of that. The only benefit of being more recent is that you may benefit from more/other documents located, fruitful teamwork/discussions/forums (like TOCH) but in the end you can still interpret things wrong....
It is not easy to be an aviation historian....

Cheers
Stig

[rof120]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Not sure I follow you here.
If you look at No 93 it was assigned to GB I/34 and since I am pretty convinced these two aircraft followed each other to GB 34 as well, I think also No 94 went to the same unit, but the remaining records only says GB 34 and not I/34.Stig

- Well, I feel there can be two explanations for this:

1. A simple, ordinary error by a clerk when writing. This was not uncommon in all countries to say the least.

Sometimes I make some incredible errors myself when writing. I discover them when checking my texts, or so I hope.

Stig: I know nothing about the French Escadre/Wing system,

- Quite simple. As I already mentioned it's much the same as the German system, for ex. II./KG 27 or III./JG 53. In German this dot plays the same rôle as the English th (609th), but I think the RAF never used it (?) for unit numbers. You can make a comparison:

II./KG 27
GB II/34

EB (escadre - wing - de bombardement had no /, only its number: EB 34 (same in the Luftwaffe: KG 3, 21, 55 etc.). There was a slight difference between both countries: in France the actual combat units were the groupes (in general 12 aircraft for twin-engined bombers or recce AC). The Germans often engaged Staffeln or Gruppen but they never hesitated to engage a whole Geschwader of 80 bombers (but they were not all serviceable, i.e. usable, at the same time). If necessary the French engaged several groupes from the same escadre (wing, Geschwader) or from several different escadres.

Sig: but it makes little sense to me to assign an aircraft (unless a hack) to such a unit.

- I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Which unit: a GB or an EB? And why does it make little sense? It could happen that an EB knew it needed one replacement AC but without knowing, yet, to which GB they would send it. There could be many reasons like, for ex., losses, battle damage to be repaired (one or more AC not available for a while), AC complement considered insufficient… I can imagine that a clerk forwarded the wish for one AC to GB 34 but without knowing more (groupe I, II or perhaps III) and only EB (bomber wing) staff would assign it to a particular groupe.

Stig: Since I don't have any French order of Battle for Sep 1939 it seems these Escadre were gone on 10 May 1940 since Jean Liron and Raymond Danel states the wings were called Groupement de Chasse, Bombardement etc followed by a number. For instance GB I/34 belonged to Groupement de Bombardement No 9. No mentioning of any wing with number 34.

- I can't remember if this was done before or shortly after the German onslaught. These "groupemants" were large pools of various units, presumably to facilitate the engagement of numerous bombers or fighters, or both (fighters escorting bombers). for the same mission. All nuits still existed as before and a few new ones were created. Before that these various units could have "belonged" to several different sectors, regions, HQs etc. Afterwards they all were the responsibility of the same HQ and general(s). They resembled German "Luftflotten" (Air Fleets) like Luftflotte 2 and 3.

"It is not easy to be an aviation historian...."

- How right you are! But many people are not aware of this or don't believe it, or they don't care. This is how a so-called French "historian" wrote that the Bloch 152 had a weak armament. Actually the Bloch 152 had a formidable armament by 1940 standards: 2 light machine-guns and above all two superlative French 20 mm cannon (my assessment is that one French HS 404 cannon was worth at least 3 German MG FF in battlle, and the RAF had chosen it, and used it as soon as possible, in a hurry, renaming it "Hispano cannon"). The same clown wrote that 7 French fighter pilots (Morane 406s), several of them being experienced ones including a captain, had thought that RAF Fairey "Battles" were nice Henschel 126s and shot down 4 "Battles" plus one French LeO 45 twin-engined, twin-fin bomber which was thought to be a perfect Hs 126 too… (by the way, this proves that French fighters were not as ineffective as many Britons, and others, think…). This is not hilarious enough for this guy is adament that a fighter's firepower was… the number of rounds carried for its guns, so that 1940 the "Hurricane" (he didn't mention the "Spitfire", which had the same armament of 8 light MGs) was by far the fighter (all countries together) with the most formidable firepower of 2,400 or "2,600" rounds or some… Actually "even" a Morane 406 had a firepower 20 % higher than a "Hurricane" because of the formidable cannon. 20 % is still insufficient for the ballistic qualities of the French cannon made its fire very accurate and terribly devastating thanks to the high muzzle Velocity. As I said, I think that one French cannon was worth at least 3 German 20 mm MG FF.

[Andrei Demjanko]

Stig

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

and if I have to choose I would take the Lela Presse book.

So would I. As for the date of loss I'll stick to Lagebericht, at least until information from French primary sources showing the other date would be available.
My guess is that someone got wrong the date when the aircraft took off on its last flight. It was not 15 but 16 October as character 5 easily could be mistaken for 6. It was not the night 14/15th but the night 16/17th October

[Stig Jarlevik]

Aha

So what you are saying is that is was GB I/34 but EB 34?
Since no source I rapidly could check actually use the word Escadre I was mentally connecting Escadre with the Swedish meaning, which is a much larger controling unit.

But I still think both aircraft went to GB I/34!

Andrei

Not saying you are wrong, but here it is a choice if the French recorded date is correct or if the German recorded date is. Since Theo Boiten in his new version of Nachtjagd, the early years part 1 does not mention the incident at all, I have no other "independent" source to check this out. All previous authors have however chosen the French date....

Cheers
Stig