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  #11  
Old 1st August 2021, 17:27
egbert egbert is online now
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Re: Strategic Culture in the Luftwaffe – Did it Exist in World War II?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Goss View Post
Dean is a Tornado Navigator and yes, did an exchange tour at Lechfeld. He is now an Air Cdre
This makes sense. The Lw units are not shy with rough jokes. They used to have 2 toilets in the Tornado casinos, one for pilots and one for navigators. Using the "other" toilet the air cdre
most likely has an everlasting trauma. But seriously this "academic" product is not worth the paper it was written on. I think it is an insult for the proud RAF to carry such a guy through the service.
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  #12  
Old 1st August 2021, 18:34
VtwinVince VtwinVince is offline
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Re: Strategic Culture in the Luftwaffe – Did it Exist in World War II?

I think we can safely file this 'study' under the proverbial 'G'.
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  #13  
Old 1st August 2021, 20:07
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
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Re: Strategic Culture in the Luftwaffe – Did it Exist in World War II?

I stopped reading it after a couple of paragraphs. Just a waste of time.
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  #14  
Old 2nd August 2021, 00:55
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This guy writes this: '...Hitler overturned the decision, insisting on technical investment into the V1 and V2 weapons, which he (alone) believed would deliver the killer blow to the Allies. This probably delayed introduction into service of the Luftwaffe’s first jet, the Messerschmitt 262, and contributed considerably to the loss of the air war...' Did he actually research the development of the 262? Clearly not, because the 262 could not have reached operational status any earlier than it did, given all the problems encountered along the way, independent of of the V1 and V2 (whether 'probably' or otherwise).

'...During combat over St Omer on 9 August 1941, one of Galland’s Geschwader pilots collided with Douglas Bader...'

Er, think he should have considered the most recent research undertaken, which points quite heavily towards Buck Casson...

'...But credibility in the eyes of Luftwaffe higher command was measured in by the number of airborne victories. This sometimes led to selection of Staka and even Gruppenführer (group leaders) with less than ideal leadership qualities. One such individual was Helmut Wick, who recorded 11 victories in 10 days in October 1940 and in line with the Führerprinzip, was given command of JG 26...'

Better tell Adolf Galland about that!

It gets worse...
'...Wick was impetuous and on 5 November 1940 in his impatience to become the Jagdwaffe’s leading ace, he attacked a wing of Spitfires with only his Schwarm as support and was shot down, never to be found...'

5 November! Jeez! This guy has the research capability of one of the flowers in my garden!

'...Certainly the ruthlessness represented by the yellow painted noses of the Schlageter Messerchmitts generated a mystique among RAF crews that gave JG 26 a psychological advantage over its opponents...'

What about all the other yellow-nosed Messerschmitt 109s in the air in combat at the same time as JG 26. 'I say, chaps, that's not a JG 26 109, so it's not as ruthless as those Abbeville Boys, what!'

What a load of crap this guy is writing!

'...The Ritterkreuz (Knight’s Cross) was awarded for the 20th victory and early in the war was personally presented by Hitler or Goering...'

He may only be taking about 109 pilots, but that is a very broad statement to make. Otto Hintze, Staka of 3./210 definitely did not have 20 victories when the Knight's Cross was awarded to him in November 1940 (in captivity).

Appears to ignore the 110 pilots. How did Rubensdörffer, Lutz and Roßiger of Erpr. Gr. 210 ever get the RK, for example? Certainly not by gaining 20 victories...
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  #15  
Old 2nd August 2021, 15:17
egbert egbert is online now
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Re: Strategic Culture in the Luftwaffe – Did it Exist in World War II?

"Err sir, would you please explain us what ISTAR means?"

https://rafm.tours/command/it-is-the...f-the-raf-6293

After analyzing the Lw another brilliant show of expertise. Clearly not the brightest candle on the flightline.


Sent from my cathouse phone

Last edited by egbert; 2nd August 2021 at 18:18.
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  #16  
Old 2nd August 2021, 15:36
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Re: Strategic Culture in the Luftwaffe – Did it Exist in World War II?

Intelligence Surveillance Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance
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  #17  
Old 2nd August 2021, 17:13
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Re: Strategic Culture in the Luftwaffe – Did it Exist in World War II?

Apart from its factual errors the essay seems to rely entirely on secondary sources and to accept Adolf Galland's postwar exercises in reputation-polishing as gospel. A piece making more use of Pow interrogations and the SRA reports (covert recordings of prisoners' conversations) might have reached quite different conclusions. When I read that Galland was "regarded among the Luftwaffe’s all‐time great leaders", I mentally added "not least by himself". Ulrich Steinhilper took didn't revere Galland and the and old guard. Steinhilper may not have been typical but I doubt he was unique. Way back, I read a very critical PoW interrogation report from his time as Jafü Sicily (but can't locate the file reference at the moment). The prisoner concerned had worked in Jafü HQ and claimed Galland went in for all the bullying, accusations of cowardice and court martial threats that he complained of when Goering did the same.

"The entry of America into the air conflict over Europe in 1943 highlighted the lack of investment in home air defence in earlier years." Again he takes the Galland line but what then should Germany have done given its industrial capacity and existing military commitments? What was the daylight threat to the Reich before the USAAF arrived and was it being adequately contained? What should Germany have given up, say in Summer 1942, to expand home defence when the camaigns in Africa and the USSR were going well for them. I'd argue that they'd got in way over their heads, with no right answer given the manpower and material resources they could generate.

"The Luftwaffe was hierarchical and bureaucratic in structure" — and there’s an organisation of a million-plus people that isn’t?

"There was very little interest in team related sports" and "None of the pilots interviewed for this article expressed any interest in football." — that is genuinely interesting when you compare it with RAF ORB "Summary of Events" which often read more like a calendar of sporting fixtures.

"Towards the close of the war the Jagdwaffe had 17‐year‐old pilots on squadrons" — so they'd joined up at 15?

"The bewildering variety of aircraft types brought into service" — was any of the major powers immune to this?

"Venereal disease was an accepted disadvantage" — wasn't catching an STD punishable under the Military Code? In general though, I don't find it remarkable that large groups of young men away from home might go in for skirt-chasing and booze. Add in the combat adrenalin and repeatedly seeing their friends killed and injured and it would be more surprising if they'd spent their off-duty hours at poetry readings and flower arranging.

"Geschwader carried the name of a famous World War I hero or some other dignitary" — Afrika, Grünherz, Pikas, Herzas? And the names of Boelcke and Immelmann, fighter pioneers both, didn't go to fighter units. And what about JG 52 having the most claimed victories but no honour title — how does that square with the famous names = motivation argument?

I think also that to talk about Luftwaffe culture conferring competitive advantage puts him on shaky ground. What worked against Poland and (at greater cost) France didn't work against Britain for example. There were other factors at work — the relative preparedness, strength and technical sophistication of the opponent, the Channel. Did the chasing of high individual scores produce a fighter arm that was more or less effective than its opponents? Others have observed that the old guard saw bringing down enemy fighters as where the glory lay, even when bombers and (indirectly) reconnaissance machines were a bigger threat. So was the Jagdwaffe's culture the same year-by-year and theatre-by-theatre and if it didn't adapt to changing circumstances did it confer competitive advantage or become a liability?
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  #18  
Old 2nd August 2021, 18:18
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Re: Strategic Culture in the Luftwaffe – Did it Exist in World War II?

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Originally Posted by Chris Goss View Post
Intelligence Surveillance Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance
thank you Chris- I meant it the sarcastic way, (as I worked a couple of years in the ISTAR domain)......
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  #19  
Old 2nd August 2021, 18:45
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Re: Strategic Culture in the Luftwaffe – Did it Exist in World War II?

From one Obstlt dR to another, I was wondering why you were asking that!
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  #20  
Old 2nd August 2021, 19:01
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Re: Strategic Culture in the Luftwaffe – Did it Exist in World War II?

Nick,

I have little reason to take the writer seriously. Aside from fact checking, the study would have been of more use if it set a standard of comparison, such as the wartime RAF against the Luftwaffe. But how many RAF airmen flew as many sorties in some cases? Or the fact that Lend-Lease was a big help? This isn't even apples and oranges but apples v. moon rocks.

Best,
Ed
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