I/JG52 07May43 Kharkov area

[Nokose]

Can anyone advise if the I/JG52 had any losses in a dogfight in the area of Kharkov in the afternoon around 18:00-18:45.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Hi Nokose!

You are trying to confirm claims of VVS, mentioned in book of O.Rastrenin "Raskolotoye Nebo" about airfield attacks?

[Leo Etgen]

Hello Nokose

Niko Fast lists three losses for I./JG 52 that day:

Bf 109 G-2 (W.Nr. 13 841) of 2./JG 52, collided on take-off with Bf 109 G-2 (W.Nr. 13 953) at Warwarowka, 75%
Bf 109 G-2 (W.Nr. 13 953) of 2./JG 52, collided on take-off with Bf 109 G-2 (W.Nr. 13 841) at Warwarowka, 80%
Bf 109 G-2 (W.Nr. 13 439) of 3./JG 52, belly-landing due to technical defect at Charkow-Waitschenko, 15%

I hope that this helps.

Horrido!

Leo

[Nokose]

Evgeny, yes to your question. Their claim to 4 Bf-109's seems to be just overclaims from the German's diving away from their attack. Course only about half the claims by I/JG52 can be confirmed and they were misidentified according to what's listed in Tony Wood's list. Good book, thanks Evgeny. Thank's for the help Leo.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Nokose - I have briefs of all those attacks, in my papers - but just have no time to write it in digital format Sorry.

You saw a thread I started long ago. Thats the only I could do.

But You have that book, and You now could try to make it.

Also - as Denes stated - there were Romanian units at that time, so mey be he could help You confirm/unconfirm losses and claims.

[Nokose]

Evgeny, I made two post on your thread. I'll get with Denes as there are Pe-2 losses for the 6May43 that don't show up on Tony Woods list.

[yogybär]

Gentlemen, one comment concerning loss categorization within the Luftwaffe: Sometimes I feel that losses due to enemy actions were deliberately mis-categorized. A friend of mine, professional historian working for the Bundeswehr, is of teh same opinion.

Just one example: On 2.3.44 in the Crimea, 812.IAP claimed two kills of 109's during take-off, while II./JG52 filed a "take-off accident" with two Messerschmitts lost and one pilot killed, filed on another airfield. From a "normal" point of view, this cannot be judged as coincidence.

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

Niko Fast has the following for the incident that yogybär describes:

Bf 109 G-6 "White? 1" (W.Nr. 140 182) flown by Unteroffizier Gerhard Barthel of 4./JG 52, killed in take-off collision
Bf 109 G-6 "Yellow 4" (W.Nr. 140 242) flown by Leutnant Ferdinand Klassen of 6./JG 52, wounded in take-off collision

I obviously was not there but personally I feel that depending on the point of view both interpretations could be correct - the Russians ascribed the collision due to their presence/actions while the Germans felt it was not due to direct enemy action. One must be very cautious in this regard as I have seen many attempts to "prove" that one side's losses are deliberately concealed. Examples including Japanese losses versus The Flying Tigers, USAAF losses in the Korean War, etc.

Horrido!

Leo