Amiot no 93 GB I/34 October 1939

[Andrei Demjanko]

Hello

This aircraft usually listed in secondary sources as lost on 15 October. However Lagebericht West Nr. 57 says this aircraft was shot down in the early hours of 17 October. I am curious about what Armée de l'Air records says about the loss of this aircraft?

PS of course Amiot 143 no 94 is the plane in question

[rof120]

According to Paul Martin in the book "Invisibles vainqueurs" (1991) Amiot 143 N° 94 (not 95) was shot down by Flak on 15 October. Martin used the French air force archive at Vincennes. 5 men POW including 2 wounded.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Now this is becoming interesting

According to Ribeiro/Ledet in their L'Amiot 143 (Lela Presse)

No 93:E-320 GB III/21 in Oct 1936; 14 GAA in July 1937 to 27.3.1939; GB I/34 in March 1939; shot down by Flak during the night 14/15.10.1939 and its crew captured in Germany.

No 94: E-321 GB III/21 in Oct 1936; 14 GAA in July 1937 to 27.3.1939; 34 EB in March 1939 (probably a misprint for 34 GB?); surveyed (authors use the word recensé) 20.7.1940 at the base Bergerac and classified as not available for flight (to be repaired); stored at Clermont-Ferrand (no info regarding the beginning of its storage) but the report was dated 5.9.1942

From available crash photos it is not possible to see which one it is.

Before this topic came up, I was not aware of this discrepancy between the two sources. Guessing/thinking aloud, I can only suppose there is something wrong with the French records. It would not surprise me if they do say No 94 was the aircraft shot down by Flak, but then other records makes No 94 pop up again. Possibly, since No 93 and No 94, followed each other to every unit until one of them was lost, Ribeiro/Ledet figured it had to be No 93 that was in fact lost and not No 94? A printing/writing error back in 1939?

I don't know this Lagebericht Andrei refers to, but it seems it is mistaken with regard to the date this incident happened.
Fledgling Eagles (Shores et al) also list 14/15 Oct
The BoF then and now (Cornwell) says the same thing, incidentally giving No 94 as well. If he has looked into any French archives or lifted it from previous sources, I don't know.

Cheers
Stig

[Andrei Demjanko]

Thank you both for your responces

It appears that serial of this aircraft is another uncertainity.

While searching for any clues I've found a table which show both no 93 and no 94 as lost in very similar circumstances, the latter without a specified date. In fact it is the same incident that listed there as the cause of loss of no 93 and no 94 as there were no other crashes of Amiot 143 in Germany with the capture of the whole crew
https://www.passionair1940.fr/Armee%...toriques-2.htm

But only one aircraft was lost.

The place of the crash not near Mainz as stated but near Burgfarrnbach.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Andrei

The French site you list is usually quite good. Very useful in fact.
However with the No 93 and No 94 we are interested in, they are clearly confused, and if I have to choose I would take the Lela Presse book.

Cheers
Stig

[rof120]

Stig:

"No 94: E-321 GB III/21 in Oct 1936; 14 GAA in July 1937 to 27.3.1939; 34 EB in March 1939 (probably a misprint for 34 GB?);"

Probably not for the number - here 34 - following / is the number of the escadre (wing) comprised of several groupes like I/34 or II/34. EB means Escadre de bombardement, GB Groupe…

The Lela book is much more recent than Martin's data (25 years or more) so possibly it contains more accurate details (?).

[Andrei Demjanko]

Stig

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

and if I have to choose I would take the Lela Presse book.

So would I. As for the date of loss I'll stick to Lagebericht, at least until information from French primary sources showing the other date would be available.
My guess is that someone got wrong the date when the aircraft took off on its last flight. It was not 15 but 16 October as character 5 easily could be mistaken for 6. It was not the night 14/15th but the night 16/17th October

[Andrei Demjanko]

One of the principles of source criticism is: primary source is more reliable than a secondary source. We have none of French primary sources available. That said I'm well aware that primary sources in general and Luftwaffe documents in patricular are not immaculate. It would be very interesting to know what Armée de l'Air records says about this incident

[rof120]

You could try the French archive:

SHD

(service historique de la défense), "Air" or "Armée de l'Air" dpt.

I understand some documents, or many, were digitized and are available online. If not you always can send an inquiry per surface-mail or e-mail.

Everything is in French, probably, but a written inquiry in English could be processed too (?).

I am not really interested in those old dinosaurs, which is why I am not researching this myself. If necessary I can translate SHORT texts into French for you guys. I'm very short of time.

[Bertrand H]

Hi Andrei,

According to the primary source - Journal de Marche et des Opérations de la 1ère Armée Aérienne - (diary) on date of 16 october 1939 they wrote that three a/c were lost : one is Amiot 143 of 34ème Escadre with Lamblin/Chable/Bondu/Begueret/Nomerange ; the two others losses were P63 of GR 1/33 and 1/52 and a British a/c.

We can guess that the losses occured night of 15/16 october

HTH

Bertrand