Did pilots fly on time differences in Europe??

[Andy Mac]

Hi Guys,

Did Luftwaffe and RAF aircrew fly in the same time zone? I am trying to pin-down a pair of Tempest losses and wonder if the time of the RAF report of the losses would be the same as the time of the Luftwaffe claim reports . . .

Andy.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Dénes Bernád]

Recently, I was faced with the same problem, when trying to match various claims and losses on the Southern Sector of the Eastern Front (Bessarabia) in mid-1941.

There were three different nations participanting in those combats (Soviet, German and Rumanian), and all three nation's time zones is different. I decided to synchronize the times found in various documents to match the local time where the combats took place, i.e. Eastern European Time (GMT+2).

I was told that the Germans stationed in Rumania did use local time in their reports, so those times German documents referring to needed no synchronizing; however, Soviet crews did fly according to Moscow's time (GMT+3), so the Soviet reports needed to be synchronized, i.e. one hour needed to be deducted.

Can anyone confirm, or infirm, if the above is correct?
It's a very important, and often overlooked, detail when trying to properly and accurately reconstruct those historical events.

[SES]

Hi,
Time zones and map coordinate systems are the worst of bad nightmares for any researcher of WW II. It is my understanding that the UK used double daylight saving time i.e. UK reports in the ETO would be in GMT+2. To day NATO and some US forces deployed use GMT in all orders and reporting ( and even for meal hours ) just to avoid confusion.
bregds
SES
www.gyges.dk

[niallc]

Hi

My understanding is that British time varied during the war between GMT and British Double Summer time (GMT +2 hrs) while German time varied between Central European time (GMT +1) and German Summer time (GMT +2).

For the 44-45 period UK Local time changed as follows:
2 April 44 - 17 September 44 BDST
17 September 44 - 2 Apr 45 BST
2 April 45 - 15 July 45 BDST

German local time changed as follows:
3 April 44 - 2 October 44 GST
2 October 44 - 2 April 45 CET
2 April 45 - 18 November 45 GST

All changes made at 0200 hrs on the date given.

You can see from this that for most of the period both sides were on the same local time (GMT + 2), the exception being 17 September 44-2 October 44, when the RAF were on BST (GMT + 1) while the Germans stayed on GST (GMT + 2).

Hope this helps
NiallC

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello all,

Time differences are a nightmare.. On the internet I found relating to Holland:

Zone Van datum:..Ten...uur:

......

Tot datum:...Ten...uur:GMT- MET02-04-194502.00.00

-

16-09-194503.00.00-2.00.00MET03-04-194402.00.00

-

02-10-194403.00.00-2.00.00MET29-03-194302.00.00

-

04-10-194303.00.00-2.00.00MET 16-05-194002.00.00

-

02-11-194203.00.00-2.00.00LT15-05-193902.00.00

-

08-10-193903.00.00-1.20.00
http://home.quicknet.nl/mw/prive/jpe...iv/tijdnl.html

And to make it worse in UK there was double british summer time - see:

1945Sun 7 October 02:00Back to GMT1945Mon 2 April 01:00Sun 15 July 01:00BDST (2 hours ahead)1944Sun 2 April 01:00Sun 17 September 01:00BDST (2 hours ahead)1943Sun 4 April 01:00Sun 15 August 01:00BDST (2 hours ahead)1942Sun 5 April 01:00Sun 9 August 01:00BDST (2 hours ahead)1941Sun 4 May 01:00Sun 10 August 01:00BDST (2 hours ahead)1940Sun 25 February 02:00BST for remainder of war years1939Sun 16 April 02:00Sun 19 November 02:00
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Summer_Time

And:

• Time differences between UK and Germany during 1940-1945.

This article was published in Bulletin Airwar 1939-1945 Nr. 99 page 26/27 as “Time calculation 1940-1945”by Rob de Bruin/Great Bookham, England.
I have checked two sources; first my own Whitaker Almanac and I have contacted the Royal Observatory at Greenwich. The situation is as follows:
1)Since 1916 Great Britain (from now on called England) has summertime. In winter they have GMT and in summer GMT+1.
2)Middle European Time (MET), that was the time in the Netherlands during the German occupation, it was equal to GMT+1 and during the summer Middle European Time is equal to GMT+2.
3)The English introduced on February 25th, 1940 their summertime GMT+1. In the Netherlands we had Dutch Time. This means that from February 25th, 1940 it was 40 min. later in England than in Holland. From may 16th, 1940 the Germans introduced MET and the Dutch were one hour ahead of the English.
4)In England it was summertime during the war from February 25th, 1940 till October 7th, 1945.
5)To get more daylight it went over to Double British Summertime (DBST). This was during:
a. 1941 May 4th till August 10th.
b. 1942 April 5th till August 9th
c. 1943 April 4th till August 15th
d. 1944 April 2nd till September 17th
e. 1945 April 2nd till July 15th
6)During these periods the time in England was GMT+2 and that’s the same as
MET (Summertime)
7)To make things more clear some examples:
Date Time in Holland/Germany Time in England.
30-05-1940 12.28 11.28
22-06-1941 06.05 06.05
03-11-1942 14.18 14.18
01-04-1943 23.25 22.25
01-05-1943 20.08 20.08
06-06-1944 05.30 05.30
05-05-1945 08.00 09.00
8)The change of time was done in the early Sunday morning hours at 2.00 O’clock.
9)Here follows a list of dates when the German time was equal to British time.
a. 1941 May 4th till August 10th.
b. 1942 April 5th till August 9th and November 2nd till December 31.
c. 1943 January 1st till March 29th and April 4th till August 15th and from October 4th till December 31st.
d. 1944 January 1st till April 2nd and April 4th till September 17th and October 2nd till December 31st.
e. 1945 January 1st till April 2nd.
This is a translation of the essence of an article published in Bulletin Airwar 1939-1945 Nr.99.
With many thanks to Mr. Robert de Bruin, Great Bookham, England.
http://www.airwar39-45.nl/luftwaffe1.htm

Hope this helps ---

Regards
Rob

[Nick Beale]

RAF sortie reports and ORBs seem to use local time for wherever they were. Ultra decrypts have all times standardised to GMT.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

RAF sortie reports and ORBs seem to use local time for wherever they were.

I am wondering, is this true also for the Luftwaffe?

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád

I am wondering, is this true also for the Luftwaffe?

In Italy it seems to be, since Italy was on Central European Time anyway.

I don't know what times RAF/USAAF units operating from French bases used in 1940 or the summer of 1944 though.

France and Britain spend most of the year on a one-hour time difference.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

In Italy it seems to be, since Italy was on Central European Time anyway.

I was referring to Luftwaffe units flying outside CET area. For example, in Rumania and Bulgaria (Eastern European Time), or later on in the Soviet Union.

[Andy Mac]

Fantastic responses, more than I could have hoped for, thankyou all.

Andy.