No. 5 Sq. (SAAF) 06.12.44.

[AndyMa]

One typo, KH931 should read HB931.
Also, didn't HB921 survive to be transferred to 249 Sqn, being SOC in Oct46?

[Ted51abcdk]

AndyMa:
Thanks for catching the KH/HB error. I didn't copy it correctly from my spreadsheet. It definitely is HB 931. Yes to the second part or your question. HB 921 was transferred to 249Sq. Looks like the transfer was sometime between 18 January to 19 February 1945. 249Sq ORBs are a bit sketchy to read at times so that date range could be possibly narrowed. Ted51

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hallo again

Let's see if I can reach some conclusion with this mess I put myself in....

KH736 - Capt. Lombard - KIA (ORB - Schoeman - Air Britain KA-KZ book fits)
HB931 - Lt. Hart - KIA (ORB - Schoeman - Air Britan fits)
KH576 - Lt. Begg - KIA (ORB - Schoeman - Air Britain fits)
FB275 - Lt. Burnett - B/O (ORB - Schoeman says FB256 - Air Britain says FB256 - FB275 was missing 1 Dec 44. Conclusion FB256 is correct)
KH587 - De Wet - RTD (ORB only, but nothing which contradicts this)
HB947 - Lt. MacGuire - RTD (ORB only, but nothing which contradicts this)
921 - Lt. Kilpin POW (ORB only lists 921, but HB921 is wrong, see Andy's comments, which corresponds with Air Britain - Schoeman says FB301 - Air Britain says FB301 - conclusion Kilpin was in FB301)
FB301 - Lt. Harriss - RTD (ORB, but see above so the insertion of 921 in the ORB is wrong and Harriss most likely was in KH533, see Steve's comments or KH562, see below)
KH533 - Lt. Osler - RTD (ORB, but see above comments, Schoeman says he was in KH533 but Steve's comments has a nice ring of truth in it, and it is a simple solution)
562 - Lt. Hall - KIA (ORB only lists 562 - Schoeman says KH607 - Air Britain says KH607, conclusion KH607 is correct)
607 - unknown NRY (ORB only lists 607, but going by Steve's comments it simply moves up one step which fits with everybody else)

Conclusion is that 921 is wrong and should not be there at all.

Since both KH533 and KH562 returned from the mission that day, I cannot say why Schoeman made his conclusion that Osler flew that aircraft. Perhaps a logbook survived? Steve's comment feels both easier and smarter....

Cheers
Stig

[Phil L.]

Hello Stig,

Or maybe Schoeman has gotten the right document in hands, I mean loss cards (equivalent to the US MACR). They are all held (as far as they have survived) by the Air Historical Branch of the RAF (which is inoperative for the moment due to the pandemic). ORBs and especially SAAF ones are not accurate, and Air-Britain is based on the ORBs, so you just mention the same source twice.

Phil

[Stig Jarlevik]

Anything is possible Phil

However when Jim did his books for Air Britain, I don't think he based them on the ORB.
Sadly I never asked him while he was still OK, but my feeling is that he had gone through the AM.78 forms and probably the loss cards as well.

I am also all too aware of the unreliability of the ORB's and their, many times, contradictory statements vs everything else.

In this case I just thought it was interesting to see if I could come to grips with the mission as listed, and thanks to Antun, who sent me the extract from the ORB, I could see it first hand.

With regard to Schoeman I have no idea why he has made the choices in his books (I think they are all great). He is a bit hard to follow since you need to look in three places to get the full picture. However on this particular mission, I actually believe Steve is right and Schoeman wrong.

Cheers
Stig

[SteveB]

Hello again

Stig is correct Jim Halley had access to documents that he always referred to as the "slips" I believe these were the first signal/telex reporting a loss received in Air Ministry and I believe these are still held by Air Historical Branch. However I don't think overseas commands reported their losses into the AM.

In Ted's last post on here his reference to "Accident Report" indicates Form AM1180/Accident Card and he confirms that Accident Cards are held for these losses. From my knowledge of the Accident Cards I believe they are not normally used to record an operational loss...?

Michael Schoeman (Skooman by the way) has produced a mammoth work in "Springbok Fighter Victory" which is never likely to be surpassed I think and provides us readers in the Northern Hemisphere with access to detail which we would probably never otherwise have. However as Stig says the way Schoeman chooses to organise his material is often quite frustrating. In Volume 5 his main description of these events is in Chapter 3 "Flight into Winter" where he provides one and a half A4 pages of description including Osler's experience in his aircraft (unidentified) but not a single serial is mentioned. There are passing references in the text of Chapter 4.

Then in Appendix 1 he lists the losses based on the ORB and Daily OPREP but he omits FB275 and includes FB256 without explanation. This is followed 20 pages later by a further separate "Commentary" on the detail in which he enlarges or corrects the record based on the ORB. In this commentary he refers to "circumstantial reports" which I can only assume are held by SANDF in Pretoria? At no point does he account for all the serials listed for the mission.

I was suspicious about FB256 because it was last recorded in the ORB on 13 November 1944 so it was a surprise when it was suggested for 6 December especially when it was not recorded on Form 541. In the MTO I think it was not unknown for aircraft to be added into a report as an operational loss so that it could be retained on the unit to be cannibalised for spares.

Steve

[Phil L.]

I have been regularly in touch in the past with both Jim Halley and Michael Schoeman and I know how they did their work. Jim for sure used other documents than the ORBs (and that includes the AHB), but as far as the overseas theatres are concerned here, most if not all Form 78s were destroyed at the end of the war, making the tracking of an aircraft difficult. For the Med, only the ORBs can give a clue of what an aircraft did (and ORBs can be wrong - some aircraft lost being still reported for example weeks after its loss) and that can be backed with logbooks and Jim worked closely with Ray Sturtivant on this field. Air-Britain registers are made of that. Check once the registers for aircraft which served in the Med or the FE, and see the number of 'Med' and 'FE'! That doesn't mean that the aircraft was held at MUs all the time, but only that no info is available on the aircraft and it might have been issued to an operational unit, but no trace was found.
Michael Schoeman has worked on this project for decades and has had access to various documents from official sources in UK or SA as well from SA pilots. He can have made mistakes and nothing is perfect but knowing what he did and the time he spent on the topic, I will first put my money on his books.