Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[HGabor]

Craig,
I agree 100% on the misidentification of planes. When I read: 'pair of Fw 190s...' I always think they were in fact Bf 109s for 99%, etc... Fw 190s usually flew in larger groups against ground targets, did not really attack fighters, etc... And not many claims are known by them either.

Known Hungarian claims on November 17, 1944 in joint operation with JG 52:

- A-20 Boston - Capt. Pottyondy László (~Bf 109G-6, 'blue 14', Commander of 102/2. Sq., in pair with Hartmann from Budaörs airfield) - Confirmed

- 2 IL-2m3 - 1Lt. Flóznik Ervin (Bf 109G, 102/1.Sq.) - (not investigated yet, probably against 4 GvShAD) - almost certainly overclaims involved

- 2 IL-2m3 - Capt. Hedrey Szilárd (Bf 109G, 102/1.Sq.) - (not investigated yet, probably against 4 GvShAD) - almost certainly overclaims involved

- A-20 Boston - Cpl./Maj. Buday Lajos (Bf 109, 'borrowed' from 101/2. Sq.) - Overclaim

- 37 mm flak battery at Adács - Horváth Sándor szkv. (~Fw 190F-8, 'W-+521', Hung. 102/1. ground attack Sq.) - no more info to check

Gabor

[HGabor]

Some side-notes to November 17, 1944:

Since Hungarian fighters did not claim soviet fighters this day, all soviet fighters (Yaks) lost in a dogfight should be sought out among the German claims!

Pilot-cosmonaut, Gv.Capt. Beregovoy's plane was not lost, only damaged in the Hatvan area, therefore it is not listed in any official loss-report of the 90 GvShAP. However, one pic shows the damage of his left wing. I have read about it in some memoires in which -of course- no further details were mentioned, like exact time and/or place. See his fancy, and famous IL-2m2, No.'22' below.

The 5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP fighter-escort of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP IL-2m3s between 12:50-14:00 local:

Yak-1B, S/N: ?????, '5' - Ml.Lt. Mihail Yakovlevich Pugin -Number questionable*
Yak-1B, S/N: 38179, '8' - Ml.Lt. Mihail Semenovich Erko
Yak-1B, S/N: 22172, '22' - Maj. Anatolii Dmitrievich Drozzhikov
Yak-1B, S/N: 45170, '45' - Ml.Lt. Ilya Egorovich Kostenko

Yak-9M, S/N: 2615390, '90' - Ml.Lt. Vasilii Evstafevich Stadnik
Yak-9M, S/N: 2615394, '94' - Ml.Lt. Victor Nikolaevich Gaponov (MIA/KIA)

* Yak-9M, S/N: 2715305, '05' was lost on November 16, 1944. How did they replace No.'5' in 1 day? True, Yak-1B, S/N: 06179, '6' was lost on November 16, 1944 and Yak-9M, S/N: 2715306, '06' was lost on November 17, 1944. Perhaps 5 and 05 were different. Anyways, no plane with '5' is listed in 122 IAP plane-inventory on January 01, 1945 (with single digit only: Yak-1B: 50160, '3', Yak-9T: 0915396, '3', Yak-1B: 04168, '04', Yak-1B: 38179, '8'), so perhaps it was written off as wear and tear still in late-November, December, 1944.

Gabor

[HGabor]

Hi Craig, yes, 3 out of Lipfert's 3 claims on November 17, 1944 seem to be a legitimate victory. (Two IL-2s from 90 GvShAP and 1 Yak-1B from 179 IAP.) This is another day with 100% accuracy for him! Lipfert always amazes me...
Cheers,
Gabor

[HGabor]

More details on the November 17, 1944 dogfights:

This day 5 VA, 7 GvShAD (130, 131, 132 GvShAP) IL-2s fought in the Maklár, Kál, Abasár, Valkó, Gyöngyös-S, Hatvan area. IL-2m3 (S/N: 12315) of 5 VA, 131 GvShAP, piloted by Gv.Capt. Ivan Vladimirovich Derkachev, Balakin took off for an engine-test flight (probably immediately after an engine-replacement) and failed to return to their base. Perhaps they were surprised by German, or Hungarian Bf 109 fighters??? (Crew later returned.)

IL-2s of the 5 VA, 12 GvShAD (187, 188, 190 GvShAP) fought in the Gyöngyös, Hatvan, Tura, Isaszeg, Aszód, Öcsöd area. 190 GvShAP IL-2s attacked the Gyöngyös area. Pairs of recce. IL-2s flew in the Hatvan, Tura, Isaszeg, Gödöllő, Aszód, Bag area. At Gödöllő-E, 4 km, they were strafing a (military?) train. They claimed 3 Fw 190s, which means: beside the 4 GvShAD IL-2s they were also attacked by German fighters, most likely Bf 109s. Escort was provided by La-5s.

La-5s therefore, of 5 VA, 14 GvIAD were extremely busy this day. At 10:00, at 2000 m, four 177 GvIAP La-5s, led by Gv.St.Lt. Belousov (HSU) at 2500 m attacked 6 Fw 190s at Gyöngyös-S, 5 km. Belousov downed one of them. At 10:03, at 3000 m, another 4 Fw 190s ‘joined the club’. Gv.Lt. Fridman opened fire from 100 m, and downed one of them at Gyöngyös-SE, 5 km. At 10:15, at 1500 m, near Csány another combat, this time with 6 Bf 109s. Gv.Lt. Miheev claimed a Bf 109 shot down at Csány-N, 2 km. Gv.Lt. Bondar fired another Bf 109 from 200 to 70 m, and downed him at Hatvan-E, 4 km. 2 Fw 190 and 2 Bf 109 claims without a single La-5 loss!

2nd battle of the 177 GvIAP La-5s took place over the frontline between 11:50-12:50 local. 7 La-5s and a single La-7 of 177 GvIAP, led by Gv.Maj. Morozov were patrolling, when at 12:20 local in the Karácsond area they met 10 Bf 109s. The Messers immediately formed 2 groups of 4 and 6. The Lavochkins claimed 4 Bf 109s: Morozov, Dogadailo, Zemit and Danishin - each downed 1.
La-5s of 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP were patrolling over their own airfield with 4 La-5s and covering their ground troops in the Gyöngyös, Karácsond, Vámosgyörk, area with 10 fighters.

BUT HERE: 1 La-5FN, S/N: 39212821, piloted by Lt. Myakinin went missing!!!!! - Perhaps Barkhorn’s La-5 claim was correct??? (Unfortunately no info on the exact local time and the fate of the pilot.)

Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Hi Gabor,

For clarification:Lt. Myakinin was from 177 GvIAP or 178 GvIAP?

[HGabor]

178 ;-)

[Kapper]

Gabor

Excellent – 15 claims are mentioned in the Daily Report, 9 German + 6 Hungarian = 15 claims total

With 8 losses matching or likely matching to claims, plus the unidentified clamant for the third Il-2 loss (5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP at 13.45) which is possibly one of the Hungarian claims (Ewald time doesn’t match) – that makes 9 / 15 – within the 50 % – 70 % range that I would expect to see for a typical actual losses against claims comparison– with the remainder mostly being crash-landed safe or those that returned damaged. I haven’t included the missing Yak-9 of Lt. Gapanov or the La-5 of Lt. Myakinin in this, due to lack of evidence to confirm that they were shot down by fighters, plus all fighter claims are accounted or probably accounted for (mis-identification). It’s possible that these two may have been mis-identified as Il-2;s but unlikely (though Hurricanes and Defiants were mis-identified in 1940) – I would think most pilots would realise if there was a gunner firing back at you. But until we get further evidence this is purely speculation.

Though it’s highly likely that Lipfert claimed the 2 Il-2’s (say 90% likely), there is still the 4 Hungarian Il-2 claims that we don’t know the time/location of their claims yet, to compare. Duplication of claims is often one source of overclaiming. They may be in the same area of Lipfert’s claims, but if the 4 Hungarian claims prove to be in different area/time then I would say for certain that these were Lipfert’s claims. Until then, to me it’s only highly probable not absolute (100%).

Now the difficult part – I believe that most claims in general are legitimate and made in good faith. If you dig deep enough you will find that something occurred – it may not be a legitimate victory but usually it’s a legitimate claim – a pilot believes he shot the plane down but it makes its way back to safety - thus overclaiming. The difficulty in matching claims is the mis-identification within claims, duplication of claims, the general lack of records for damaged aircraft and the incorrect reporting of events – i.e. pilot getting back (or others) and reporting being shot down by flak but evidence suggest that were actually shot down by another aircraft (and vice versa) – Hartmann after his 90th!

With the Il-2 claims, you have 7 claims for 3 losses – but since 2 are accounted for, we are looking at 5 claims for 1 loss. This aircraft had a reputation as a tough one to finish off – so it wouldn’t surprise me if they were damaged aircraft. As you suggested, damaged aircraft details are generally not in loss reports - something common with all nations, thus requiring a lot more work. Some derail of damaged aircraft can be found in the Unit diaries – are they available and have you had time to check these out yet?


Regards,

Craig…

[HGabor]

Hi Craig, the situation is a bit complicated. Hungarian fighters flew mission over the southern slopes of the Mátra mountain in the Gyöngyös area. Unfortunately no exact time is known for their IL-2 claims. But in that region mainly the 4 and 12 GvShAD IL-2s operated. (90, 91, 92 & 187, 188, 190 GvShAP)

In the 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, the 187 GvShAP flew only 1 mission this day between 12:50-14:30 local in the Gyöngyös-W area with 12 IL-2m3: ('65'-Lozorenko, '68', '76', '66', '69', '74', '75', '70', '98', '92', '82', '91'), led by Gv.Capt. Lozorenko. They attacked truck columns on the roads, but did not report dogfight, or plane losses! Fighter escort was 4 La-5s of 5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP. No fighter losses. (279 IAD La-5s protected IL-2 formations and recce. aircrafts of 7 and 12 GvShADs this day.)

5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP, escorted by La-5s of 192 IAP -as previously discussed-, lost an IL-2, S/N: 10956 at Gyöngyös-W.

Also found, that division level doc. of 14 GvIAD mentions a 'new' La-5 loss with pilot: Gv.Ml.Lt. Yusupov on November 17, 1944. But: I have NOT found any such loss in the regiment combat diaries of 14 GvIAD, or in their mechanical reports, only Myakinin's 39212821 in 178 GvIAP! (No 'Yusupov' is known in the 14 GvIAD regiments either.) Perhaps it's just a typo.

Too bad, some planes, like Gaponov's Yak-9M went missing without any specific location. Only region is known. It is the hardest to match such losses. Anyways, we try, what we can...
Cheers,
Gabor

[HGabor]

On November 16, 1944 Hartmann claimed 2 Yak-9s, while other Bf 109 pairs attacked IL-2 formations, hunting for German tanks. Known IL-2 dogfights:

Between 13:05-14:37 local, 9 IL-2m3 of 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 187 GvShAP attacked the Aszód-Hatvan area:

IL-2m3, No.'65' - Gv.Capt. Boris Ivanovich Lozorenko
IL-2m3, No.'68' - Gv.Ml.Lt. Ivan Ilich Shmonov
IL-2m3, No.'76', S/N: 10986 - Gv.Lt. Mihail Vasilevich Hramushin
IL-2m3, No.'79' - Gv.Ml.Lt. Alexeii Vasilevich Chukavin
IL-2m3, No.'69', S/N: 18817109 - Gv.Ml.Lt. Vladimir Yakovlevich Volkov
IL-2m3, No.'74', S/N: 11010 - Gv.Ml.Lt. Gennadii Vasilevich Miheichev
IL-2m3, No.'75', S/N: 1879474 - Gv.Capt. Ivan Sergeevich Obedkov - (See photo!)
IL-2m3, No.'98' - Gv.Lt. Kuddus Kanifovich Latipov
IL-2m3, No.'89' - Gv.Ml.Lt. Nikolai Vasilevich Selyutin

Their formation was attacked by 2 Bf 109s without any AC losses. Here some IL-2s could be damaged and therefore reported/(over-)claimed.

8 IL-2m3s of 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 190 GvShAP were also attacked by 2 Bf 109 without any losses in the Cegléd area. Gunner, gv.st.sgt. Boris Georgievich Krayukhin repelled 2 fighter attacks on his own plane, which might have been damaged and therefore (over-)claimed, - but they successfully returned to their base.

The only 12 GvShAD loss this day, Anatolii Sergeevich Patrin, gunner of 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP was killed on the ground in a German attack on his airbase, not in a dogfight!

Perhaps this info can help to investigate/clarify other German/Hungarian IL-2 claims for the day.

Gabor

[BenFolk]

Hi Gabor!

and what about the airplanes that have been damaged in aerial combat. With the aircraft that were later repaired. As far as I know, there were many who flew heavy, light and later on again after a few days.

greeting BenFolk