Attempt to identify Heinrich Hartmann's 39th victory.

[Courtois Laurent]

Hello everybody ,

In general, this victory is considered to be at the expense of Albert Littolff, the French ace of the famous Normandie-Niemen. This grooving error was published twice again in 2017 and 2019 in a top level aviation magazine "Aces". Therefore, it seems interesting to me to spend some time to identify the 39th vicitm of Hartman.

The known data are:

No. 39, "LaGG" on 16.7.43 / 2.15pm over PQ 54661 @ 1500m.


In his Hartmann post our eminent colleague Christer Bergström wrote:

No. 39, "LaGG" on 16.7.43/1415 over PQ 54661 @ 1500m: 18 GIAP and Normandie Niemen Eskadrilya. 18 GIAP lost Serzhant Ivan Stolyarov while Normandie Niemen lost Kpt. Albert Littolff (possibly by Hartmann), Lt. Noel Castelain and M.Lt. Adrien Bernavon. All KIA

It cannot be Litolff, because 2:15 p.m. German time, equivalent to 3:15 p.m. Soviet time at that time the last French has been laid for 10 minutes and the zone does not correspond either 15 km to the east. You have to look among, 12 la-5, 10 Yak-7, 1 Yak-1 lost this day By the 1st VA (AA). The 3 Yak-9s lost that day are those of the Normandie-Niemen and cannot have been shot down by Hartmann.

second correction : 18 GIAP lost Serzhant Ivan Stolyarov" for this day,in the report of the 18 GIAP is wrotten "no meeting with ennemy".

Translation of the report of the 303th IAD :

18 Gv IAP from 18.15 to 19.25 protected our troops in the Znamensckoe, Ilanskoe, Khotynets region. 18 Yak-7s made 18 flights, flying 18 hours 59 minutes. To carry out a reconnaissance, two Yak-7 carried out two flights, flying 2 hours 25 minutes. In total 20 flights, 21h 24 minutes of flights. There was no encounter with the enemy.

The hunt is therefore on! It remains to be verified among the 13 remaining Soviet regiments who may be the 39th Victim ....

[Courtois Laurent]

This research does not require a great methodology, it suffices to read the unit reports one by one: Let's start
Summary of the day of the 1st VA: 308 planes carried out 488 missions. Looses: 12 La-5, 10 Yak-7, 1 Yak-1, 3 Yak-9 (GC3 Normandie)

303 IAD (Figthers division = 18 Gv IAP, 168th IAP and 523th IAP, French GC3 "Normandie")

According the report of the 1st VA loose one Yak-7 ???
Victories : all for french GC3 "Normandie" : 2 Me-110, 1 Ju-87, 3 Fw-190, 1 FW-189, 1 Me-109.

Reoprt of the 303 IAD / Архив: ЦАМО, Фонд: 20265, Опись: 1, Дело: 18,
18 IAP : 20 planes flew, 18 for troop protection missions on the ground and two for a reconnaissance flight (certainly weather reconnaissance at dawn). No encounter with the enemy.


168th IAP : 22 planes flew, 20 for troop protection missions on the ground and two for a reconnaissance flight (certainly weather reconnaissance at dawn). No encounter with the enemy.


523th IAP : no combat mission, aircraft overhaul.
French GC3 "Normandie" : last plane returned at 3:05 p.m. Soviet time, or 2:05 p.m. Berlin time.


First conclusion: Hartman did not shoot down a 303 IAD aircraft.

309 IAD. : (49th, 162th, 172th and 272th IAP)

According the report of the 1st VA : looses : 1 La-5, 1 Yak-7, 1 Yak-1 (see below)
Victories : 3 FW-190 - 1 FW-189 (see below)

Report of the 309 IAD / ЦАМО, Фонд: 20270, Опись: 1, Дело: 11,

49th IAP : 7 La-5 made 7 flights.
Loose : 1 La-5 pilot Jr Lt Olkhovsky during the attack of a FW-189 near Khvastovichi ( 53.469556, 35.094762). The FW-189 shoot down near sector 35 ost 54512, by Captain Emir Chalbash.

162th IAP : 24 Yak-7 and made 34 flights. No Losses, one air combat, which were shot down 1 FW-190 escorting Ju-87 and Ju-88, above Oleshkino (53.922,35.435) 35 Ost 54134)


172th IAP : 23 Yak-7 and made 38 flights. In the Bolkhov region at 5:40 am (Soviet Time) a fight against 4 Fw-190s which attacked Sturmoviks. Two FW-190 shot down and 2 Yak-7s destroyed - Sergeant Gyz and Second Lieutenant Tambotsev.


The only fight that seems to match:


07.16.43 Uffz. Hugo Broch 6./JG 54 LaGG-3 £ -? -: at 2.800 m. 04.35 Film C. 2032 / II Anerk: Nr. 606
second conclusion: Hartman did not shoot down a 309 IAD's aircraft.


Most of the work remains on 2 IAK to be continued ...

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Laurent, bonjour.

I have never seen Hartmann's Flugbuch, except one page on one of his biographies (by Schiffer).

However, let me suggest some kind of practice that I have seen both in RAF Forms 540 and RAF Logbooks and had done myself and seeing other pilots doing, whilst flying civilian aircrafts.

There is a tendency amongst some pilots to "round" the Hour (H) he sees on his clock to the highest or lowest decimal. I have seen on some RAF Logbooks entries for, for example 21:42hs, whilst on the RAF ORB it is registered 21:45hs and vice-versa...It is known that whilst cross-checking Logbooks versus Official Documents (Squadron Diaries), this may occur...

One would need, to verify if Hartmann "tended to round the hours", to have the JG 52 War Diary and cross-check with his Flugbuch.

Maybe other Historians can add a bit more about that and if they ever found such discrepancies between Logbooks and Squadron War Diaries....I guess they do exist quite a lot indeed.

Regarding the correct place of the combats...I GUESS (it is my humble opinion) that the pilots (all nationalities) tended to register an overall area where the combat ocurred...for instance when the combat started...or after achieving the victory and checking his whereabouts. During the "dogfight", I really doubt that the pilot would be preoccupied where he is going or not...he is only focused onto shooting down his opponent...This "general area" of combat can be seeing reported here, for example, amongst dozen of US Army Air Corps fighter pilots: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...t-reports.html

So, returning to Hartmann's 39th claim....why not can it be considered his claim for a LAGG 3 with some 10-15 minutes of discrepancy and some 10-15 km of the Normandie-Niémen losses (3 losses you informed)?

Am not sure also, how the orders from above were issued to register the combat entries...The time recorded is the time the combat started or when the enemy crashed down (which I assume is the correct)?

Most humbly yours,
Adriano Baumgartner

[Courtois Laurent]

Hello Adriano,

thank you for participating in the debate

One thing is solid, the last plane from Normandie returned at 3:05 p.m. Soviet Time (2:05 p.m. german time).
Jean Tulasne crosses the old Front line 20 km from his aréodrome at 2:50 p.m. (ST), i.e. 1:50 p.m. German time.

After I agree that the time is relative, the pilot can round off, note the time at the end of the fight, estimate the time after returning home. It is also true that wrecks of Soviet aircraft have already been identified on the ground 10 km from the indicated trapeze.
It is also possible that a Normandie-Niemen pilot decided to pursue a stuka to Orel and that Hartmann shot him on the return.

It is possible everything is possible, but with the conditional of a conditional itself resulting from a conditional, we cannot do a proof.

What we know: at Hartmann's time, there are no longer any French in flight, unless we admit a lost pilot.

That the French were not attacked by the JG52.

The French at 2:02 p.m. saw Yaks east of Klen fighting against 2 FW-190s, which were not JG52.
We also know that 9 km south of the place where Littolf's body is supposed to have been found at the time of the fight, a German pilot other than Hartman and the JG spotted by the Normandie-Niemen claims a Yak- 9 (the type of Littolf's plane) 8 minutes after the start of the fight.

So we have a German JG pilot spotted by the Normandy pilots, who claims at the right time and in the right place a Yak-9, and we would have to choose a pilot from another unit (Hartmann), who claims a victory at a less favorable place and a less favorable one ???

Another argument is not the least the 322 IAD loses day there in the same sector as that of the Normandie-Niemen 11 La-5 and despite this we would need to imagine that the La-5 claimed by Hartmann was the Yak-9 by Albert Littolf.

So the most solid hypothesis is that Hartmann shot down one of the 11 La-5 lost by the 322 IAD, which fell in the German lines.

As soon as the Covid crisis ends and the Tsamo will reopen, I will go through the archives of 322 IAD and we will have an answer.

Humbly, faced with the harsh reality of archives,

Laurent COURTOIS

[Christer Bergström]

Laurent, do you live in or near Moscow?

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Christer Bergström

Laurent, do you live in or near Moscow?

Hello,

I am currently stuck in France due to Closed Borders due to Covid. What consoles me is that at the last news the Tsamo is closed alrs that I have a large list of documents to consult ... I hope to be able to return to Russia as quickly as possible.

Laurent Alexandre

[Edward L. Hsiao]

Gentlemen,

I never heard of Heinrich Hartmann before as a German ace. What was his final score before WWII as over? Was Hartmann a holder of the German Cross in Gold?

Edward L. Hsiao

[Edward L. Hsiao]

Did Heinrich Hartmann survived WWII? I know that Heinrich Hartmann was not related to Erich Hartmann.

Edward L. Hsiao

[Siko54]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

Laurent, bonjour.

I have never seen Hartmann's Flugbuch, except one page on one of his biographies (by Schiffer).

However, let me suggest some kind of practice that I have seen both in RAF Forms 540 and RAF Logbooks and had done myself and seeing other pilots doing, whilst flying civilian aircrafts.

There is a tendency amongst some pilots to "round" the Hour (H) he sees on his clock to the highest or lowest decimal. I have seen on some RAF Logbooks entries for, for example 21:42hs, whilst on the RAF ORB it is registered 21:45hs and vice-versa...It is known that whilst cross-checking Logbooks versus Official Documents (Squadron Diaries), this may occur...

One would need, to verify if Hartmann "tended to round the hours", to have the JG 52 War Diary and cross-check with his Flugbuch.

Maybe other Historians can add a bit more about that and if they ever found such discrepancies between Logbooks and Squadron War Diaries....I guess they do exist quite a lot indeed.

Regarding the correct place of the combats...I GUESS (it is my humble opinion) that the pilots (all nationalities) tended to register an overall area where the combat ocurred...for instance when the combat started...or after achieving the victory and checking his whereabouts. During the "dogfight", I really doubt that the pilot would be preoccupied where he is going or not...he is only focused onto shooting down his opponent...This "general area" of combat can be seeing reported here, for example, amongst dozen of US Army Air Corps fighter pilots: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...t-reports.html

So, returning to Hartmann's 39th claim....why not can it be considered his claim for a LAGG 3 with some 10-15 minutes of discrepancy and some 10-15 km of the Normandie-Niémen losses (3 losses you informed)?

Am not sure also, how the orders from above were issued to register the combat entries...The time recorded is the time the combat started or when the enemy crashed down (which I assume is the correct)?

Most humbly yours,
Adriano Baumgartner

Hi Adriano,

Probably doesn't add much, but I was an RAF pilot for 17 years (a very very long time after the war!) and the accepted practice during my service was always to round up to the nearest 5 minutes as you stated above. As a current commercial pilot it is rounded upto the nearest minute. Best regards, Si

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Edward L. Hsiao

Gentlemen,

I never heard of Heinrich Hartmann before as a German ace. What was his final score before WWII as over? Was Hartmann a holder of the German Cross in Gold

Ed
No idea why this topic states Heinrich since it certainly seems to concern Erich Hartmann's 39th claim. If you check the date, 16.7.1943, you will see it corresponds with Erich's claim

Only one Heinrich Hartmann listed by Johannes, and he was a Zerstörer pilot most of his career. He is listed with 6 claims.

Cheers
Stig